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The real problem in the software industry today, is that many human resources departments have not evolved from personal departments, they have only glorified the name.
We often see the wrong people getting the best jobs.
This is the failure of the HR departments, not the failure of the candidates.
Look at the heading "Career 2.0 is a series that will share success tips, tricks and strategies to help you upgrade your career."
The HR deptartment wants people to either decieve them or to play their little office political games, they are not out to find the best person suited to a particular position !
Regardz
Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining.
Said by Roger Wright about me.
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Yep... That explains some additions to my workplace.
Alberto Gattegno
Software Engineer
http://www.itgil.com
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I spent some time dealing with them, it's really funny. People who barely know what a computer is working through checklists and asking what your skills are. Interviews with people with whom you are mutually incompatible. Jobs that are yours until the employer gets a chance to hire someone who is not through an agency and can save himself a fee.
In contrast I have interviewed for three jobs I sourced myself, one interview they failed and the other two jobs I got.
Christian
Hey, at least Logo had, at it's inception, a mechanical turtle. VB has always lacked even that... - Shog9 04-09-2002
During last 10 years, with invention of VB and similar programming environments, every ill-educated moron became able to develop software. - Alex E. - 12-Sept-2002
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My tactic (because I can afford to) is to interview the company (even if they think they are interviewing me), and in the process, they learn a lot about me based on the questions that I have and the ensuing conversations. I find this technique works a lot better, because I gain control of the interview and can cull the companies that I don't want to work for (but used to discover that fact after 2-3 months!)
Most interviewers to this day don't know how to conduct an interview. Take advantage of that fact. The rest seem to rely on technically oriented tests. Study up. Work with a recruiter that knows the company, even if you're applying direct. Many will be happy to work with you because they may get someone on the "inside" simply by sharing some information.
Marc
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Got to agree with Marc here.
I find that if I approach it from "Why should I work for you" angle, I do better in the interviews. After all, this is a place I'm going to spend most of my waking hours.
Again because my CV is pretty impressive, I can use this kind of tactic. I'm not sure that it'd work for people without lots of experience.
Michael
Programming is great. First they pay you to introduce bugs into software. Then they pay you to remove them again.
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Yes, well may be it works but you are luckier than the average candidate.
Being an inquirer as you explain it makes yourself communicate more aggressively to the interviewer, even if you think you have the right tone. Not only interviewers are not used to it, they are unlikely to provide you with adequate answers.
I admit it does not necessarily mean you have an aggressive face when asking questions. But eh, only very open, stress free people, or people in their 30s-40s are able to do this. And when you have such a state of mind, you usually don't end up with a job as software developer or the like.
To succeed with such behavior, you also have to maintain a neutral face and avoid mimics, to show that you are really interested, not just trolling or laughing at them.
An interesting point is to check how the HR or technical people answers your questions. Bubbling or hesitating answers reveal quite a lot indeed...
Finally you can figure out that, at this level of this recruitment process, what counts more is human communication. Not technical skills, there will be plenty of time after you are hired to go on with it...
PS : the idea of having a contact with an "insider" is great. Both parties can take advantage of it, and this is likely to result in better and more long term recruitment. Unfortunately, in France for instance, very few HR people do so (HR have quarter objectives and have signed an EPM, don't forget it).
-- modified at 10:05 Saturday 8th October, 2005
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Have to disagree a little bit.
I'm less than 30, however, I consider the interview as both ways and it works well. When looking for a new job (I prefer to quit before to search), I KNOW that I will succeed before to retire in a few decades, so the interview is never the "last chance" but an opportunity to find THE dream job. After all, I will not work for them but we will work together, right?
Now this doesn't mean to be aggressive, but dynamic, very attentive and self-confident. It can be done almost seemlessly: "Yes, I used to work with SourceSafe and CVS and, btw, what tool do you use? None? Ok, I can bring you that if there is interest on your side."
Of course, it's easy with no house, no kids and a job market that I am blindly confident is still strong enough for people like me. Anyway, if I fail, then it's maybe time to start on my own...
Eric
China PRC
P.S.: the article forgets the unit tests: the probation period...
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The way you see it is very positive, and as such it deserves its own purpose.
However, the one person at the origin of the thread talked about questions such like "why should I work for you?" which could mean the person has a lot of ego.
The sentence "I used to work with SourceSafe and CVS and, btw, what tool do you use? None? Ok, I can bring you that if there is interest on your side" is open and constructive, that's totally different.
-- modified at 10:06 Saturday 8th October, 2005
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Right on.
Another idea would be to run the Joel test on the company.
Cheers,
Simon
"Sign up for a chance to be among the first to experience the wrath of the gods.", Microsoft's home page (24/06/2002)
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Loved the "Joel Test". I had to laugh, because "do you use version control" is always the first question I ask. I have yet to get a "yes" answer. Thanks for the link!
Marc
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Marc Clifton wrote:
"do you use version control" is always the first question I ask.
I always ask "what version control do you use", assuming that it's obvious in any team work environment it's impossible to work without one.
Marc Clifton wrote:
I have yet to get a "yes" answer.
I thought it's only happening in the "one man show" companies to not use version control. However it's usually possible to run your own since you are the only guy writing the software anyway.
In any place that many people are working on the same code it's a must.
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I agree. Recently, I interviewed as a contractor for a "educational" game company in CT. Every programmer and graphic artist said "we'd love to use version control, but nobody knows how to set it up".
More recently, I was talking to the network admin for a company in Rhode Island that does telemarketing via fax, and he was asking me if I thought version control would be useful, because there's about 8 programmers on the project. Good grief.
I used to work for a game company in San Diego (Software Sorcery, now defunct) that used version control, but they tied it in to the build process for each programmer. The batch file automatically checked out any latest code before building. Talk about instability!
And my best story is this: An "integrating" company in San Diego had one team using a bootleg copy of version control. Why? Because the senior management didn't want to spend $600 per seat for PVCS or SourceSafe. Instead... they thought the programmers could WRITE THEIR OWN, and then SELL it as a product. Hahahahahaha.
Marc
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I'm a one man army show now and don't use version control, but back when I worked in a team environment, the version control was all done by the (one) designated coordinator.
I can't remember it being that difficult.
The only way I'll really know if its any good is to use it I guess.
But maybe ab article here at CP about the advantages of version control would be useful to enlighten some of us antiquated folk.
Regardz
Colin J Davies
Sonork ID 100.9197:Colin
You are the intrepid one, always willing to leap into the fray! A serious character flaw, I might add, but entertaining.
Said by Roger Wright about me.
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This article looks like it was in a server cache since a couple of years, and only came to the surface now, as it comes with soooooo many stereotypes that have burned 1000 times and proved wrong since the internet debacle.
IMHO, one of the smartest path to return to a new appealing job is to improve the ability(ies) to communicate.
That's not a matter of technology. If that was, you HR people would have been phased out a million times already.
My -0.5 cent.
-- modified at 10:05 Saturday 8th October, 2005
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StephaneRodriguez wrote:
as it comes with soooooo many stereotypes that have burned 1000 times and proved wrong since the internet debacle.
Can you give specific examples of what you mean by this. I've read the article through a couple of times and I'm lost to what you are referring too.
Thanks,
Michael
Programming is great. First they pay you to introduce bugs into software. Then they pay you to remove them again.
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Ok, I have taken this to discuss with : "Do you meet all of the required skills and experience for the jobs you applied for? "
- "Required skills" means nothing. More than 80% of software developer job offers will simply list a series of languages or systems...just for you to end up doing C++ 99.99% of the time.
- Required skills evolve all the time. Do you know what CLI, J#, EJB mean ? Are you a loser if you cannot describe with a simple sentence what each technology is and used for ?
- You are required 3 or 5 years experience with technologies that just came out.
- Required skills cannot be discussed with HR people.
- Required skills such like technology names is an insult to software developers. It's much like saying that the only way to discuss a developer is to use those keywords.
- "Required skills" corner you as a specialist with the so-called skills, while what you are looking for is to begin your job, but you are willing to train and learn new technologies troughout the years, hence new skills. The Required skills thing by definition tell you that you won't be trained. In fact, if you are a passionate guy and like new technologies, you'll end up with self-training. That's not bad at all, but that's a non industrial training.
- "Required non technical skills" such like the ability to work in a team is 1. obvious, 2. useless in being named, 3. a way to avoid to discuss the real projects you would work for.
-- modified at 10:05 Saturday 8th October, 2005
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Stephane,
This is pretty much right. The whole nature of IT recruitment is flawed. Everyone is obsessed with buzzwords. In many cases any competent programmer can get to a reasonable degree of proficiency in a new technology within a few weeks and is often at least useful well before that. But willingness to learn seems to be regarded as a black mark against you.
See also Debunking the Myth of a Desperate Software Labor Shortage (This is long, but see sections 7 and 10)
Kevin
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That's a great paper everyone should read as a replacement of this 'upgrading your career' crap published in Codeproject.
It is full of real stories, and that's what counts.
-- modified at 10:05 Saturday 8th October, 2005
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StephaneRodriguez wrote:
That's a great paper everyone should read as a replacement of this 'upgrading your career' crap published in Codeproject
Huh ??
All his examples in that paper are stated in order to make a case for stopping immigrants from coming into hi-tech industry in the US.
Matloff used to be all over immigration usenet newsgroups in the mid-90's bashing the H1B program in general and asian and indian immigrants in particular.
Samples
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Nice article, good to have something from someone involved in the recruitment of techy positions. I am still an undergraduate but am aiming to get a 1st (as all students always do), but am currently comfortably in an upper 2nd position (not sure if you're aware of the UK grading system).
Anyway, I will be looking to get a graduate job when I leave, and would particularly like to target larger Companies doing development work. Whether that be applying to one of the consultancies such as Accenture or Logica, or working for a development Company itself.
What would you suggest as being the key things I ought to hone? On any application forms I send off should I be stressing technical abilities, or would that be considered a given and its a case of finding a person with the best attitude etc.?
--
Paul
"I need the secure packaging of Jockeys. My boys need a house!"
- Kramer, in "The Chinese Woman" episode of Seinfeld
MS Messenger: paul@oobaloo.co.uk
Sonork: 100.22446
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