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I like the article, but I hate your picture. Family Guy is...I don't know, but I just don't like it.
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This is precisely the point. If you pay, say, 3 times less to a developer, you get 1/3rd the quality of work.
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True.. I knew someone who worked for a company that paid for "cheap" developers from Indian to work on a project, They got what they paid for. a Poorly designed system that is so unreliable it had to be rewritten by someone competant after 2 months! And of course after all this it cost nearly double than the original cost!
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More than everything remember to ensure that all these are been very well applied in all levels of outsourcing
* Quality Planning and Control
* Assurance, Validation and Verification
* Control of Non-conformance
* Measurements
* Corrective and Preventive Action
* Review and Audit of Assurances
Found at one of the best Offshore Outsourcing company[^]
'°¨°'¹i|¡'°¨°'¹''þ¤ð®ñëñе¶à¶.<º))))><.·´ Ç¥ßÊ®_VϮã`·.¸><((((º>°”ˆ˜¨
((¯\ .-·,¸_þ¤ð®ñëñе¶à¶.-¨¯`·¸-·~¹'°¨°'¹i|¡
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I think outsourcing is a difficult question. Sure - in the end, my job is in the balance. I have already been working alongside developers from s.e asia for a long time. They are people as well, have mouths to feed and are in general decent chaps. In a few months or in a few years, my job might be gone - and I really can't do anything about it.
So I won't say if we should outsource or not.
What I do want to say is this:
I don't really see any possibility of competing. You can shift to management, if that option presents itself - but other than that you cannot really compete. They sacrifice a **** of a lot more than most of us would consider sacrificing.
At the same time they get really big rewards for their sacrifice. Their salaries are quite good in their local setting, and can afford them a lifestyle that is quite impossible in western countries with the same job.
I guess I am generalising, and this might not be the average case, but it fits quite well on all my s.e asian friends. I mean I might earn a buck more, but it buys less - on the other hand I am not willing to work 16h days for years even if I got a big raise.
So, for my part, I wish 'em good luck, because they are friends and for my own part, I stay around as long as there is work to be done - then I'll have to do something else. (Be your BOSS or mow lawns?)
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Rent-A-Pro.COM, the global service marketplace for knowledge workers, where you can post your own project free and receive bids from a global pool of highly-qualified service providers.
IT Outsourcing
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Interestingly enough, I have just heard that I am being made redundant in 3 months time.
The entire development operation is being shifted overseas. Its obiviously a cost reasoning..
So my question to you all.... Is how do we compete with these guys??]
So Im off to go round the jobs sites...
JC
John Crocker
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Hi All
Some very interesting points, many thanks for your feedback.
I originally wrote this article based on my experiences of working with an external foreign outsource organisation. It is not my intention to endorse using or not using Foreign outsource organisations, indeed if I had it my way, a team of internal developers is always the best way to go, but again thats based on my own experience!
In my opinion, CodeProject is a portal for developers to write and discuss not just about code, but about the issues that effect them in their daily lives, Hence the category where this article has just been moved being "Work Issues". Many times I have used Codeproject for Code Advice, but Just as many times I have used it to get other developers viewpoints and theories on The non-Development side of things.
Codeproject is an excellent portal because it has this diversity! Please do not change it.
John Crocker
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Thanks for a nice article about project efficiency.
In my view "foreign" could be the guy next door as well as in the next state.
Your worst adversary here has got a point about the effects of outsourcing,
but when did programmers write company policy?
Being anonymous takes the bite out of his arguments though. The whole Idea about programming is to face your clients and stand for your code. If you can't, there is probably something wrong with it...
Regards
Krister Henningsson
Gupta Team Developer 3.1
VC++ 2003
Oracle 8i
W2K-XP
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Outsourcing is the worst thing to happen to software developers. There are so many that have lost jobs because of it. Stop outsourcing, you may find yourself out of a job soon.
http://www.techsunite.org/
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monsue wrote:
Outsourcing is the worst thing to happen to software developers. There are so many that have lost jobs because of it. Stop outsourcing, you may find yourself out of a job soon.
I am appalled that someone would have the gall to not only endorse, but give "helpful little tips" on how to destroy the American development community, on a site as great as the Code Project. Off-shoring hurts America and only helps the greedy and the immoral.
"Off-shoring" is just a euphemism for "economic treason." I work for a company, Qwest Communications, and they are laying off over 5,000 qualified, experienced, well-educated and productive IT professionals, and sending our jobs over to India. Some of us have even been required to train our unqualified, inexperienced and poorly educated "replacements."
Who benefits from undermining America's economic base? The same people who always win: Rich White Guys. Who loses? Everyone else. While we end up in the unemployment line, the CEOs of Qwest and IBM (Indian Business Manchines?) shove million$ into their already burgeoning pockets.
Some people try to argue that putting Americans out of work and giving billions of US dollars to Indians is 'good for America' and good for India. However, giving our jobs and money to India will not fix India's problems and will only worsens ours. India is a nation with over 300 million slaves, where 16 million children are sold into the lucrative and legal child rape trade annually (per IndiaWatch), and no amount of American payroll money will make a positive difference while it all goes to India's own Rich White Guys. Bottom line, it's immoral to give money to the "haves" who will only use it to continue to oppress 300 million "have nothings."
I'm disheartened that someone would actually offer pointers on how to put Americans out of work, and use this venue to do it. This isn't the Wall Street Journal, after all.
Let's stick to code on the Code Project.
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<India is a nation with over 300 million slaves, where 16 million children are sold into the lucrative and legal child rape trade annually (per IndiaWatch), and no amount of American payroll money will make a positive difference while it all goes to India's own Rich White Guys. Bottom line, it's immoral to give money to the "haves" who will only use it to continue to oppress 300 million "have nothings."> Ahh ok... Are we having a bad hair day??
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And every business really does have a right to do whatever it finds effective (by all means).
To John: great article really, I guess I can also write some text which looks at the things from another side..
Sincerely,
Alex.
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Now theres an idea... Outsourcing from the other side. Why dont you write it Alex?
John Crocker
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Not that I feel like a big guru, but I do have some experience of being at the other side and running company that works for foreign customers, so I probably will write it eventually.
I just don't know if my experience and thoughts will be useful to anyone, if they are common problems or specific ones. Anyway, if codeproject community asks their usual 'why is the article', now I will probably be able to tell that I was asked to write it
Sincerely,
Alex.
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1) Never accept poorly written jave apps for production deployment in both cases: offshoring or outsourcing. ( instead of C++, C# .NET or even VB.NET ) They don't work, exceptions screens never end, fixing them wastes too much time, saving will end up massive time 3x-5x losses after all cases are handled...
2) Verify you can understand error messages... Or in other words application does not require translator (Spanish, Hindu, Russian)...
3) Code developed in India will take years to deploy.
4) Always have local expert to fix unfinished code....
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I tend to agree with each of John's points... particularly the last. I have been directly involved in software development here in "Silicon Valley" for forty five years and have worked at all levels within the profession. During that time I've had to work with engineers/programmers from several different countries and have had both pleasant and painful experiences.
In my opinion, based on some experience, I think that you must NEVER, EVER outsource your chief architect, designer, and developer/programmer positions,
and each of your people at those levels must have a one-on-one close relationship with their equivalents in the "foreign" company and must insist on complete understanding and agreement of their phase of the project before going on to the next.
Maintenance should be "driven" by a senior individual that is fluent in the language of the area within which support is provided, and that individual must report to your senior maintenance individual. Error/exception and "bug tracking" must be fully automated and online 24/7 without exception.
The estimated cost of the entire life cycle must be considered before contemplating outsourcing. There are usually unexpected, and sometimes painful, costs when outsourcing.
Never outsource "mission critical" product development. The blood on the floor may be yours!
The advantage of having your own people involved at every level and phase of development is almost always beneficial, but not always quantifiable.
Nulli Secundus
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software development for forty five years???!!
/\ |_ E X E GG
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Yep, 'fraid so. Fell into it (was originally a computer hardware developer) back in the vacuum-tube mainframe days when we wrote our own programming systems (symbolic programming systems, autocoders, assemblers, and eventually what we now call compilers, linkers, etc. etc.. There were no real operating systems in those days...only "control programs" of varying complexity which we developed ourselves. It has been a fun ride!
Nulli Secundus
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Your article offers excellent insight into the dynamics of foreign outsourcing. Especially the issues related to "communication".
Since I am on the same road (catering to overseas clients), these tips will surely help me avoid some of the pitfalls that you have mentionend. Also I am looking at this article from the service providers perspective, Im sure it will be of immense help.
great job...
keep the faith
Deepesh
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I remember a project for a previous company I worked for, where the client was US-based and our graphics team produced graphics that used British spelling for the captions, and the clients were sorta furious
Smitha and I were part of the coder team and we soon got used to using American spelling for everything, but the Graphics guys found it harder to adjust and grumbled all the time that Americans can’t spell.
Nish
My take on gmail - Is gmail just a fashion statement?
My blog on C++/CLI, MFC/Win32, .NET - void Nish(char* szBlog);
My MVP tips, tricks and essays web site - www.voidnish.com
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It´s a known fact that Americans can´t speak ENGLISH
bum... and I thought I´d got rid of all the bugs :(
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