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Hi,
Savita Halappanavar apparently died because she was refused an abortion in Roman Catholic Ireland.
To set out my stall, I am a Dutch Citizen living in Ireland for the past 37 years. As such I have no voting rights on issues relating to the Irish constitution. I am an EU Resident, not an Irish citizen.
I am also a fully fledged atheist. I do not believe that humanity was ever created by any form of deity, nor, that any deity capable of creating the universe that we experience exists. I am happy to accept that human mankind developed out of nothing, and for no reason whatsoever. I do not believe in either heaven or hell, but, what I do believe in is that humans can create hell on earth for their contemporaries.
What happened recently in this country is a disgrace, and an example of when good people lose sight of reality.
I am of the firm belief that the attitude outlook and belief of the patient should be the paramount and overriding view, and that medical staff are there in that respect as servants to the patient, and not as protectors of their own, or their patients heavenly remains.
Sorry if I offended anyone, did not intend to do so,
but, sometimes I have to re-assert reality.
Kind Regards,
Bram van Kampen
Bram van Kampen
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wrong forum?
If it moves, compile it
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No,
Definitely Right forum!!!
Bram van Kampen
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No, this is the wrong forum. As it's a discussion that has religion as a large part of it, this should be in the Soapbox, not the lounge.
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Well... can't we try to keep the religious aspect out of the argument and just discuss it from the ethic an moralic view?
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Too late - the intent of the OP was to make it religious right out of the blocks.
"Hi,
Savita Halappanavar apparently died because she was refused an abortion in Roman Catholic Ireland.
To set out my stall, I am a Dutch Citizen living in Ireland for the past 37 years. As such I have no voting rights on issues relating to the Irish constitution. I am an EU Resident, not an Irish citizen.
I am also a fully fledged atheist. I do not believe that humanity was ever created by any form of deity, nor, that any deity capable of creating the universe that we experience exists. I am happy to accept that human mankind developed out of nothing, and for no reason whatsoever. I do not believe in either heaven or hell, but, what I do believe in is that humans can create hell on earth for their contemporaries."
That was the opening to the post. How could it be anything other than a religious post?
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OP wrote: what I do believe in is that humans can create hell on earth for their contemporaries.
So he's obviously heard of Sunderland.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Shed Petition[ ^]
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I tend to agree with lotrice, belongs in the soapbox. This does look like it should start a good old fashioned religious argument.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Hi,
The point is here that I am trying to take the religion out of the argument.
bBram
Bram van Kampen
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Your OP would suggest otherwise:
Bram van Kampen wrote:
Savita Halappanavar apparently died because she was refused an abortion in Roman Catholic Ireland.
...
I am also a fully fledged atheist. I do not believe that humanity was ever created by any form of deity, nor, that any deity capable of creating the universe that we experience exists. I am happy to accept that human mankind developed out of nothing, and for no reason whatsoever. I do not believe in either heaven or hell, but, what I do believe in is that humans can create hell on earth for their contemporaries.
</blockquote>
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I agree totally that the only real factor affecting decisions such as this should be the safety of the patient. In this case, the mother (though one could argue the baby to be was also a patient)
I also agree that it is ludicrous to deny abortion based upon religious belief. Having said that, it doesn't mean that abortions should be taken lightly or allowed to become a 'safe sex' option.
In Ireland the issue is surely the law, and not religion. The law makers make the laws based (in principal) upon the desires of the majority of the population; sure an idealistic view, but that is what is meant to happen.
Now, as a doctor, with the law being very plain, what do you do? Break the law and possibly lose your livelihood?
in this particular case, as I understand it, the doctors did no see a significant health risk to the patient. The patient asked them to abort the baby - I do not think any medically trained person suggested that that would be a safer option.
So, doctors refused to carry out an illegal operation on a patient that they did not believe was at significant risk through not having the procedure.
They were wrong - how and why the mother got septicaemia in the timeframe without intervention is puzzling to me - I would have thought she would be well observed, and the foetus quickly removed upon its confirmed death.
I ramble too much. My only real reason for responding was to hopefully put across the idea that it is not the medical staff's issue - it is the governments and, therefore, the citizens of Ireland's issue. One really cannot expect people to break laws they do not agree with, but to add their voice to those that want the law changed.
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_Maxxx_ wrote: I agree totally that the only real factor affecting decisions such as this
should be the safety of the patient
So the patient has no say in the matter?
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safety was probably the wrong word. Wellbeing would be better, perhaps.
But if, for example, a patient wants their leg amputated because it is hurting a lot, the professional's opinion may be that there are other, less extreme options that, in the long term, would be best for the patient.
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I belong to the state where she came from - Karnataka in India. There is a big outcry in the press in India, including the local Kannada language press.
The question asked is "Is it right to jeopardize / sacrifice the life of a living person, just to safeguard the life of her unborn (and presumably dead) child?"
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As Max (the thread before you) the real question is, should people break the law, just because hey disagree?
Or maybe should they pressure politician into changing the law?
That is more relevant, practical, yet less sensationalistic questions!
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
_________________________________________________________
My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
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I agree; the question I posed is addressed to the policy-makers. Perhaps this incident can influence a change in policy.
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All good! 
A train station is where the train stops. A bus station is where the bus stops. On my desk, I have a work station....
_________________________________________________________
My programs never have bugs, they just develop random features.
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The unfortunate tragedy of Ms Halapanavar happenend not because of the law of the land but because a consultant in charge denied her her constitutional right. To the extend that the Irish Police are now investigating. What you are witnessing here now is the antics of the Pro-choice lobby making political capital from the sad event. Given the opportunity the pro live lobby is no better.
It would not surprise me if the consultant in question turned out to be pro choice and allowed this woman to die to prove a point that pregnancy can still be fatal.
There are two points I will sign off on.
According to the constitution of Ireland, "The State acknowledges the right to life of the unborn and, with due regard to the equal right to life of the mother, guarantees in its laws to respect, and, as far as practicable, by its laws to defend and vindicate that right".
Ireland has just 6 deaths per 100,000 pregnancies making one of the safest places in the world to be pregnant.
Ger
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Ger Hayden wrote: It would not surprise me if the consultant in question turned out to be pro choice and allowed this woman to die to prove a point that pregnancy can still be fatal.
Man you are a cynical bugger, I hope you are wrong, if you are not then I hope they lynch the bastard, pro choice or not!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Ch3ap Chi|| P1lls! Buy n0w!
Ok, but seriously, if that's what happens, that's just Good Strategy. And, of course, if he plays it right, he will have put in at least a years worth of "pretending to be a proper pro-lifer" as preparation, and he will never ever say something pro-choice from this point on.
I just hope he plays it right. It's a nice strategy, one that could very well work.
That way it will have been useful. If he's really pro life, then this was just stupid. Of course it may still end up being useful, but without strategy that doesn't count.
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Unfortunately few doctors are willing to perform medically necessary abortions because of all the legal problems.
Didn't the consultant say "this is a Catholic country"?
It's about time the world grew up and cast off the shackles of religious dogma. If people want to be religious, fine, but no special treatment.
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I suspect that was a racist excuse to hide behind religion...
Ger
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Much of the discussion I have heard in the UK has laid the blame at a lack of effective legislation to provide any substance around the constitutional right.
Every man can tell how many goats or sheep he possesses, but not how many friends.
Shed Petition[ ^]
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