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Nelek17-Mar-20 1:55

17-Mar-20 1:55

ZurdoDev wrote:
but the numbers don't seem to match.

Then look again. In some hospitals in Italy, the doctors are being forced to disconnect some patients to give the respirator to other patients that have better chances.

M.D.V.

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ZurdoDev17-Mar-20 2:00

17-Mar-20 2:00

Nelek wrote:
In some hospitals in Italy, the doctors are being forced to disconnect some patients to give the respirator to other patients that have better chances.

To be fair, that happens during a pandemic or not. And from what I have heard which could be totally wrong, and not to make this political, but their "universal" healthcare doesn't even work on a good day.

Regardless of universal healthcare or not, the world's healthcare systems need fixing.

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Nelek17-Mar-20 2:01

17-Mar-20 2:01

ZurdoDev wrote:
And from what I have heard which could be totally wrong, and not to make this political, but their "universal" healthcare doesn't even work on a good day.

The US system only works if you can pay it. And you have a lot of people who can't pay it (or at least that's the image given in many, many, many films, books and so on)

M.D.V.

ZurdoDev17-Mar-20 2:04

17-Mar-20 2:04

Nelek wrote:
The US system only works if you can pay it.

First off, the US system does not work. It is a scam and a ripoff of the American people. But that's another topic for when the soapbox comes back. Wink | ;)

But no, that statement is not entirely correct. Hospitals cannot turn people away for not being able to pay. Of course, the hospital will likely sue them later if they can but they cannot deny treatment.

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Nelek17-Mar-20 2:09

17-Mar-20 2:09

ZurdoDev wrote:
But no, that statement is not entirely correct.

Then I stand corrected.

M.D.V.

ZurdoDev17-Mar-20 2:13

17-Mar-20 2:13

Nelek wrote:
Then I stand corrected.

You should sit. Save your strength.

On a side note, have you ever tried the standing desks? I know some people that love them. I can't imagine trying to stand and work all day. Seems crazy to me.

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Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.

Nelek17-Mar-20 2:32

17-Mar-20 2:32

Yes. I have one. I mostly sit, but from time to time I stand for a while to change my body gesture and / or if I am a bit sleepy after lunch, standing makes it easier for me to keep awake and concentrate a bit better until the "lunch-deep" is gone.

M.D.V.

Nelek17-Mar-20 2:14

17-Mar-20 2:14

ZurdoDev wrote:
To be fair, that happens during a pandemic or not.

Not at that scale... this is literally being...
Dump this 80+ years old patient because over there the 60+ years patient need it too and he might live 15 years more than this guy.

Happening more times a day. That is not normal state, not even in that "crappy universal healthcare" you tell.

M.D.V.

ZurdoDev17-Mar-20 2:15

17-Mar-20 2:15

Nelek wrote:
Not at that scale.

Agreed.

But it's all about survival of the fittest, right?

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Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.

Nelek17-Mar-20 2:28

17-Mar-20 2:28

The Lounge[^]
Already told so a couple of times.

M.D.V.

CPallini17-Mar-20 3:07

CPallini

17-Mar-20 3:07

Quote:
To be fair, that happens during a pandemic or not.

Not at this rate. And rate matters.

Quote:
but their "universal" healthcare doesn't even work on a good day

Our healthcare is under pressure even on a good day, that's true.
But, in my experience, it is of quite good quality. And, in my opinion, 'universality' is really appreciable in a healthcare system.

ZurdoDev17-Mar-20 3:16

17-Mar-20 3:16

CPallini wrote:
'universality' is really appreciable in a healthcare system.

There just doesn't seem to be any good way of doing it. For example, why should I have to pay for your healthcare when you don't take care of yourself. That's not fair. But I also should not be turned away when I get in a car accident and my head is bleeding all over the place.

The only way I can see it working is if normal everyday health related issued are NOT covered and accidental when you weren't doing something stupid issues are covered. Of course that could never be defined and could never work. I just don't see how any plan can ever work correctly.

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CPallini17-Mar-20 3:36

CPallini

17-Mar-20 3:36

Quote:
There just doesn't seem to be any good way of doing it

I am confident there are better ways of doing it. The system is far from being perfect. Anyway, I am glad here we have it.

Quote:
why should I have to pay for your healthcare when you don't take care of yourself. That's not fair.

True.

Quote:
But I also should not be turned away when I get in a car accident and my head is bleeding all over the place.

True as well, and much more important, in my opinion (might be I'm biased, they promptly saved my life after a bike accident Big Grin | :-D

Nelek17-Mar-20 2:00

17-Mar-20 2:00

ZurdoDev wrote:
The US, at least, has tons of home health care workers. If hospitals are being overrun maybe they need to do in-home care.

Might be, but how many of the average Joe can afford the payments for that?

M.D.V.

ZurdoDev17-Mar-20 2:01

17-Mar-20 2:01

Nelek wrote:
but how many of the average Joe can afford the payments for that?

I don't have numbers but a lot of insurances would cover it. And when a national state of emergency is declared, the government might end up covering it (meaning me.)

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Mark_Wallace17-Mar-20 2:59

Mark_Wallace

17-Mar-20 2:59

ZurdoDev wrote:
Plus the treatments that are available at the hospital can also be done in the home.

I've had bronchial pneumonia three times, so yes, I can do as well for myself at home as they could do for me in a hospital, but few could, and need mechanical assistance.

Just remember that coronavirus doesn't kill you; it gives you pneumonia.

And pneumonia doesn't kill you, either, it just fills up your lungs with fluid until you can barely take two paces without running out of breath.

You die of a heart attack, shock, or a very unpleasant form of drowning (as opposed to the pleasant forms).

Good luck dealing with that at home if you've never had experience of it.

Or were you talking about everyone else, and not yourself? I've found it to often be the case that people who complain that others should "man up" and handle things on their own are the first in line begging for help at the slightest hiccough.

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ZurdoDev17-Mar-20 3:01

17-Mar-20 3:01

Mark_Wallace wrote:
Just remember that coronavirus doesn't kill you; it gives you pneumonia.

And pneumonia doesn't kill you, either

Guns don't kill people. The bullets do. Laugh | :laugh:

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Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.

Mark_Wallace17-Mar-20 3:04

Mark_Wallace

17-Mar-20 3:04

ZurdoDev wrote:
Guns don't kill people. The bullets do.

That's actually a terrible analogy.

Better would be "People don't kill you, they just shoot you with guns".

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Nelek17-Mar-20 1:39

17-Mar-20 1:39

ZurdoDev wrote:
2. I have seen lots of people say that it is to slow down the demand on hospitals. However, hospitals can't do much to treat corona virus, it's just a strong flu. So, from what I have read, the treatment from hospitals is administer fluids or oxygen in extreme cases. I can drink fluids at home. Do regular people go to the hospital when they get the flu? I never have. I don't get it often but when I have I stay home, hydrate, and ride it out. So, it seems like most people should not be going to the hospital anyway so a "run" on the hospitals doesn't seem like a valid reason for shutting things down.

And for the respiratory insufficiency... do you have an artificial lung or a respirator helper at home?

I agree with you that not all going to the hospitals should be there, but it is harder that a flu. Some patients that have got over the illness have lost up to 30% of pulmonary capacity and the flu doesn't usually leave such hard disabilities behind once you get over it.

I don't have links right now because such information is not desired right now to be that public, but I know many doctors (specialists in different areas), nurses and other people being there in first line that say similar things without knowing each other.

But hey (I just want to save you the effort of having to type it), I am just a random poster in the internet, all what I say is non official BS.

M.D.V.

ZurdoDev17-Mar-20 1:53

17-Mar-20 1:53

Nelek wrote:
all what I say is non official BS.

Well I was going to comment, but I guess not. Big Grin | :-D

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Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it.
Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.

Nelek17-Mar-20 2:34

17-Mar-20 2:34

You forgot the "(I just want to save you the effort of having to type it), " bit Smile | :)

M.D.V.

F-ES Sitecore17-Mar-20 2:42

F-ES Sitecore

17-Mar-20 2:42

The standard flu is an upper respiratory condition so it affects mainly your nose and throat, but covid 19 is a lower respiratory condition so it affects the lungs. One of the reasons it's more dangerous than normal flu, especially to those with existing respiratory conditions.

Nelek17-Mar-20 2:53

17-Mar-20 2:53

I think you wanted to answer him Wink | ;)

M.D.V.

OriginalGriff17-Mar-20 1:41

OriginalGriff

17-Mar-20 1:41

The hospital problem is simple: most people don't need one - but those that do need intensive care, evntinators, and skilled help. If they don't get it, they die. Sometimes, even if they do get it, they die.
And hospitals don't have an infinite supply of ventilators (or beds, nurses, doctors, ...) because if they did, they wouldn't have any money left to buy MRI machines, CT Scanners, operating suites, and so on. So the idea is to slow the rate down so that the number of emergency case arriving at hospital is less than or equal to the resources available that they need. If it exceeds them, people will die, and if it exceeds them by a large amount, then a lot of people will die: and they are mostly mothers, fathers, grand parents - the part of the population that is less healthy to start with.

And as for the "return to normal" bit: if we can get past the worst of it, then the large bulk of the population should - in theory - have built up a natural immunity to it, so until it mutates again (as colds and flu viruses do each year) the outbreaks should be "containable" and although it'll probably be with us forever now, just as colds and flu are the effects should be a lot less extreme (as our immune systems are used to a variant of it already they get a "leg up" on the mutated version).

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ZurdoDev17-Mar-20 1:55