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W∴ Balboos, GHB2-Apr-20 6:25

2-Apr-20 6:25

Just one point - true for grapes, potatoes and a huge number of plants that are produced in commercially viable scales: Seedless or not, they are almost always clones.

Nothing new - been around for centuries - many centuries.

An interesting genuine example of where your idea about seedless propagation is proven all too true: the Irish Potato Famine - a blight. But every damn potato in the country was grown the way potatoes are always grown - started from little pieces of other potatoes. All had the same genetic makeup. There are a few types of bananas - and one of them is being massacred. All of it happened without GM'ing anything (in a lab) and might be stoppable by the lab work. Learning how to do that should be well perfected before it's urgent. Like sprinklers to help reduce the danger of fires.

Science needs to reach into the unknown to learn and discover new things. The only guarantee of safety is to sit back in your cave and hope you can find some fire to keep the carnivores out.

Ravings en masse^
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

Nelek2-Apr-20 6:35

2-Apr-20 6:35

W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Nothing new - been around for centuries - many centuries.

I disagree in this. As a kid, in the fields surrounding the town where my mother was born, there were at least 5 different kind of grapes. Different colors, sizes and time slots for seeding, flowering and recollecting.
Now... only one kind with 4 different types (colour and sweetnees).

The canary islands had a local banana unique in the world. Not sure if they still have it, but if yes... then it is going to be very few units. The other kind had a bigger relation of productivity per m², the choice done by the people is obvious.

M.D.V.

If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
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W∴ Balboos, GHB2-Apr-20 6:45

2-Apr-20 6:45

Nelek wrote:
Different colors, sizes and time slots for seeding, flowering and recollecting.
Now... only one kind with 4 different types (colour and sweetnees).

Nonetheless, before or after, all clones. That's the point.

Complaining about seedless varieties is not a valid argument in the world of commercial farming. Not unless you don't mind someone, somewhere, starving. It's only useful in a "natural world" and a natural world wouldn't have seven or eight billion of us two-legged creatures eating and breeding.

Worrying about what-if? There's always a "what if?" - but there's also a "What if we don't?" that could be worse . . . just a little bit later on.

Ravings en masse^
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

Nelek2-Apr-20 7:26

2-Apr-20 7:26

W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
and a natural world wouldn't have seven or eight billion of us two-legged creatures eating and breeding.

We will take care of that ourselves sooner or later.
The big questions are "when?" and "will be only us? Or will we crash the world defintivelly in the process?"

M.D.V.

Eddy Vluggen2-Apr-20 6:02

Eddy Vluggen

2-Apr-20 6:02

I don't like the idea of killing "pests" on a large scale; China killed sparrows because they were a pest. As a result, insect populations exploded and a famine followed.

Still, you're right, we need more food than traditional farming can supply. A good way to minimize the risc is to have both, until GMO is proven to provide more benefit than problems.

Bastard Programmer from Hell Suspicious | :suss:

If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.

W∴ Balboos, GHB2-Apr-20 6:31

2-Apr-20 6:31

Actually, there's a "right way" to use GM versions that, for example, have a built-in pesticide. It's called a sacrificial field. It's a non-resistant small field (or fields) mixed in with the resistant ones in order to keep the pest's gene-pool non-resistant (or at least for a much longer time).

Along with your bird thing: when you kill the snakes, you get the rodents.

There was/is a computer game that simulated an ecosystem with three interdependent species: lions, wilddebeast, and grass.

Kill off the lions and the wildebeast population explodes, they eat too much grass - and starve. Lots of grass means more wildebeest which can feed more lions that eat more of them. Always pushing back to a balance. Except if someone goes extinct.

Ravings en masse^
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

Eddy Vluggen2-Apr-20 6:34

Eddy Vluggen

2-Apr-20 6:34

W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote:
Actually, there's a "right way" to use GM versions that

The "right" way is to never bet on a single horse. You divide your chips.

I wouldn't mind a GMO-ban in Europe; our food would become to expensive to export, but pretty certain that supermarkets would offer the choice - and I doubt there'd be a taste-difference.

Bastard Programmer from Hell Suspicious | :suss:

If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.

W∴ Balboos, GHB2-Apr-20 6:38

2-Apr-20 6:38

Tell me - could you resist a tomato with capsicum genes built in? I call it "The Salsato" - salsa vine ripened and freshly picked.

Ravings en masse^
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010

Eddy Vluggen2-Apr-20 6:44

Eddy Vluggen

2-Apr-20 6:44

I'm making pizza today. Would be awesome on it, no?

If it can prove its value, it will sell, simple as that. Until that moment, I'd prefer for the world to not switch en masse.

Bastard Programmer from Hell Suspicious | :suss:

If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.

Jörgen Andersson2-Apr-20 2:48

Jörgen Andersson

2-Apr-20 2:48

Science is a tool, any tool can be used both for good or for bad.

The study of viruses is the base for genetic manipulation. Like it or not.

The use of manipulated viruses will probably be a (if not the) solution to cancer treatment.

Using viruses as weapons has been pondered, but it's quite stupid, because it hit's friends as well as foes, and it can't be controlled.
That is exactly the reason anthrax has been developed for use as a biological weapon. It can be treated with antibiotics, and it is not contagious between humans.

Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello

Nelek2-Apr-20 5:41

2-Apr-20 5:41

Jörgen Andersson wrote:
Science is a tool, any tool can be used both for good or for bad.

Already proven many times in history

Jörgen Andersson wrote:

The study of viruses is the base for genetic manipulation. Like it or not.
The use of manipulated viruses will probably be a (if not the) solution to cancer treatment.

I know, and I already said, that I am conscious about the potential good it can do.

Jörgen Andersson wrote:
Using viruses as weapons has been pondered, but it's quite stupid, because it hit's friends as well as foes, and it can't be controlled.

You know what Einstein postulated, don't you?

My only problem is that because of the money, power, fame, ego food, getting into the history books... whatever reason that moves such studies. There is hurry to be the first (kind of logical), and that's exactly my worry. We might think we have everything under control and that we are the most intelligent and can do whatever we want, but fact is... there is always a way to screw it up, and some of them are not that good secured / hidden.

M.D.V.

Jörgen Andersson2-Apr-20 5:47

Jörgen Andersson

2-Apr-20 5:47

You kind of described a large part of the IT-industry here: Move fast and break things. Roll eyes | :rolleyes:

Then again, Always keep Hanlon's razor in mind

Wrong is evil and must be defeated. - Jeff Ello

Nelek2-Apr-20 6:04

2-Apr-20 6:04

Jörgen Andersson wrote:
Then again, Always keep Hanlon's razor in mind

That's the point... exactly because of that.
We can think those kind of labs are that super secure, but then a day someone don't pay attention in a repetitive task, because didn't sleep well, felt a bit sick but "I am fine, thanks", drunk a bit during lunch because there was something to celebrate...
When one is always in contact with danger, routine is a bad companion. And what it doesn't happen in many years, can happen in a second.

M.D.V.

DRHuff2-Apr-20 4:33

DRHuff

2-Apr-20 4:33

If it was released by Xi and the CCP can we call it “Winnie the Flu”?

If you can't laugh at yourself - ask me and I will do it for you.

jlongo2-Apr-20 5:29

jlongo

2-Apr-20 5:29

A Chinese research paper written by Chinese scientists in China, attempting to determine the source concluded the virus originated in a "Horseshoe Bat". The closest known colony to Wuhan is 800 miles away. The researchers could not locate anyone familiar with the Wuhan "wet market" who had seen "Horseshoe Bat" for sale.

There are TWO virology labs in Wuhan and they were studying those bats. The researchers concluded the virus most likely escaped from one of the two labs (it would not be the first time).
They are not saying that this was a) intentional or b) some kind of escaped bio-weapon, the suggestion is that the virus may have made its way to the market from someone who had initially been exposed to blood and tissue of the bats in one of those labs.

The Chinese scientists recommended those labs and others in China located in major population centers be moved to less populated areas as well as more stringent protocols put in place.

Nelek2-Apr-20 5:34

2-Apr-20 5:34

jlongo wrote:
They are not saying that this was a) intentional or b) some kind of escaped bio-weapon,

I didn't said anything about intentional.

jlongo wrote:
the suggestion is that the virus may have made its way to the market from someone who had initially been exposed to blood and tissue of the bats in one of those labs.

That's exactly my point. There is no 100% security no matter how much we think we have something under control, and all in all, these corona virus is still on the "low" area. There probably are worst things in such labs.

M.D.V.

I wonder...

Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter1-Apr-20 19:41

Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter

1-Apr-20 19:41

Is it common that newly coated roads are totally wavy and not even resemble what you may call flat surface?

"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012

OriginalGriff1-Apr-20 20:09

OriginalGriff

1-Apr-20 20:09

Only in third world countries ... Big Grin | :-D

"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!

Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter1-Apr-20 20:20

Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter

1-Apr-20 20:20

I didn't realized we are so advanced already Laugh | :laugh:

"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012

OriginalGriff1-Apr-20 20:54

OriginalGriff

1-Apr-20 20:54

Here in the First World, we lay 'em flat, then sit back and watch 'em go wavy with potholes, lumps, channels, dips, ... Sigh | :sigh:

"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!

Mark_Wallace1-Apr-20 21:09

Mark_Wallace

1-Apr-20 21:09

in Italy, they lay 'em flat, then sit back and watch the utility companies dig 'em up again.

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

CPallini1-Apr-20 22:13

CPallini

1-Apr-20 22:13

Now, you are exactly right.

obermd2-Apr-20 4:20

obermd

2-Apr-20 4:20

OriginalGriff wrote:
Only in third world countries ...

Like Denver. It seems that all new pavement in Denver is like driving on a dirt road.

Stefan_Lang2-Apr-20 21:18

Stefan_Lang

2-Apr-20 21:18

I think that's deliberate: everyone's driving a SUV now, so why take away the fun of driving offroad? Poke tongue | ;-P

GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)