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Richard A. Dalton wrote: I have finally decided that the reason for my bias is that the greatest Code Horrors I deal with now are badly written Packages and Stored Procs etc.
But THIS is the problem, not really the 'concepts' of stored procedures or packages. The same can be said about regular code and writing shared libraries and using objects.
Poorly written anything is junk.
You can’t blame the tool or the concept really.
Blame the user of the concept/tool = YES
Blame the reviewer of the designer = YES
Blame the reviewer of the implementation = YES
You can use the best tools on the best platform using the best agreed upon methodologies and still write code that is ugly.
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Ray Cassick wrote: You can use the best tools on the best platform using the best agreed upon methodologies and still write code that is ugly.
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I agree 100%, there is too many drawbacks on using adhock queries in the client application that most of the times prevents scaling an application. what if you have a table holding customer records, and you want to move the address columns to a new table to introduce multiple addresses for a customer.
how are you going to due this when you have a web app, thick client, analysis cubes, reporting that will all require change and how do you manage deploying this change out?
by preventing adhock or table direct queries all one would have to due is modify a few views and procs.
secondly how can you ensure that all the adhock queries in all applications that are consuming this database are all using indexes, common business logic and formulas. and how would you trace down a poorly written adhock query that is table scanning, how do you go about fixing it and deploying it without impacting other user applications.
my developers may only select from a view or call a proc from any application period....
look on the bright side, you have an opportunity to catalog all objects and send out impact statements to understand who is using what and also have an opportunity to find synergies between your development teams to come to a common process
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Well, in a well designed application, the data access logic would be in a separate library called from all you clients. So you'd change it there (similar to just changing the SP). The change is still in one place - but it is in code, that the developer can find, debug, version control, etc. And a quick scan of the code can find the references - no orphaned SP hanging out there.
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You are echoing exactly the point I made about VB. It's the developers not the tools that are the problem.
Yes. You can write good, clear PL/SQL (ish).
Yes. All of the problems I have mentioned are the fault
of humans, not the software, not the language.
BUT.......
The level of expertise generally for PL/SQL or T/SQL or
indeed databases in general seems so poor that I consider them toxic pieces of technology.
Right now I'm working on Code that comes from...ORACLE.
Surely to goodness if any company should care about turning out a decent stab at good PL/SQL it should be ORACLE.
It's a fricken mess. I can't stress enough just how bad this code is. I've been in this business for over 14 years and this is genuinely the worst code of any kind that I have ever worked with. I will go so far as to say that it is impossible to work with.
Now. As bad as the code can be in VB or ASP.Net or C++ or Whatever, at least I have decent relatively mature and solid debugging tools.
At least by and large source code tends to be under source control.
At lest by and large there tend not to be multiple different versions of the same functions (ish).
Also, the nature of PL/SQL and T/SQL etc are that they are In my opinion fundamentally ugly languages. Verbose and difficult to work with when doing anything but the most basic tasks.
The Development Tools seem geared towards light admin rather than heavy development.
Perhaps, with the right set of tools, life could be easier, but far from the right set of tools, most companies I visit don't even have a basic set of tools. They set up the cheapest simplest configuration that gets them moving. Need Debugging? Screw you Jack...create some log files.
So we have a number of problems coming together in a perfect storm.
1. Developers DB skills beyond the absolute basics are poor.
Attitude seems to be...DB? Pff How hard can that be?
It's just SQL right?
2. Most who can write PL/SQL or T/SQL have no concept of
what quality code is. Indeed I don't think they see
their PL/SQL as code, and they don't feel obliged to
observe ANY rules of craftsmanship.
3. Development and Debugging tools are poor at best.
4. Most clients seem confused about how to integrate DB
development into their overall development process.
And seem reluctant to heed advice on how to do so.
5. There can and often is a turf war between developers and
DBA's that make a difficult situation worse.
Overall...my feeling is...it's not worth it.
Develop as much as possible in Visual Studio or whatever
IDE you are using. Keep as much as possible within your
control.
Treat the DB as a data store only
*unless* the client has the infrastructure and the expertise to support using the DB for more.
-Rd
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Richard A. Dalton wrote: Treat the DB as a data store only *unless* the client has the infrastructure and the expertise to support using the DB for more.
Agreed. Or unless, you control the DB as well.
Richard A. Dalton wrote: Screw you Jack...create some log files.
Well, at least you're not named Jack. 
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Andrew Rissing wrote: Agreed. Or unless, you control the DB as well.
I think this small modification of my original point answers the points raised by PoweredByOtgc above.
Yes. There are types of applications and applications of a certain scale where it's very hard to get by without using the additional powers of the DB Server.
but...
If you are building one of those applications you damn well better be in an environment that can handle it and know what you are doing.
Using the old 80/20 rule. 80% of apps can probably get by with using the DB as a pure dumb data store, and in my opinion that should probably be the default approach.
The DB is too important. It's the foundation of all your systems. It's too important to be screwed around with by code monkeys who assume that because they can write an SQL query and know what an index is they can write Stored Procs, Packages and all manner of things.
I'll say it right now, hand on heart, I've been writing PL/SQL and T/SQL for years and in my opinion even I shouldn't be. I don't believe I am skilled enough. It's a specialised area that needs a hell of a lot more respect and perhaps a sprinkling of fear.
Nobody assumes that because you can use Javascript you must therefore be able to write enterprise apps in Java. Yet that seems to be the assumption when considering SQL Queries and PL/SQL.
Part of the problem is the notion that YOU MUST USE STORED PROCS. It drives inexperienced codes down a road they shouldn't be on.
I think far from encouraging programmers to work with stored procs by default. The default approach should be
to work with AdHoc queries entirely in your language of choice.
When you advance to a level where you can work effectively in PL/SQL and T/SQL you would probably be working in that 20% or less of apps that really need that.
And that PL/SQL T/SQL track should be a clearly defined path that you follow, not something you fell into.
Bottom line folks...can we pleeease get a bit of software craftsmanship in the DB.
Anyhoo, thanks for listening. It's been a help.
-Rd
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1. Developers DB skills beyond the absolute basics are poor. Attitude seems to be...DB? Pff How hard can that be? It's just SQL right?
That's why a development team should hire GOOD developers. Anyone that say this is IMHO NOT a 'good developer'.
2. Most who can write PL/SQL or T/SQL have no concept of what quality code is. Indeed I don't think they see their PL/SQL as code, and they don't feel obliged to observe ANY rules of craftsmanship.
That's why you should hire GOOD DBAs. And by Good I don't mean 'can write a query with joins and that does not use Select * all over the place. I mean a real DBA. I would agree that many don not feel they are writing code, but add to that the fact that ANY company that has ANY change management or review process SHOULD be running these resources through a code review process.
3. Development and Debugging tools are poor at best.
I don't know if I agree here. I have seen some pretty good tools. I am getting partial to Toad lately, and the SQL Enterprise manager does some decent performance monitoring metrics. The large gap I see when things like web services must run multiple queries against disparate Dbs from different vendors and do aggregation before returning result sets, but that is just something inherent in using multiple platforms like I run up against all th times (IE: Mixing data from DB2, SQL and Oracle SPs).
4. Most clients seem confused about how to integrate DB development into their overall development process. And seem reluctant to heed advice on how to do so.
Again, people problem that can be solved (IE: The idiots need to be fired) and not really a technology issue.
5. There can and often is a turf war between developers and DBA's that make a difficult situation worse.
I hear that  but again, people problem.
I seem to remember hearing a discussion VERY similar to this way way back in the days when OOP was 'invented' and people started to discuss the n-tier model and how UI side developers were never going to 'get' how their design impacts the overall use of the app so code jockeys should just be allowed to write it all.
Man, what comes around goes around
But I DO understand it... been knee deep in it... lived through it...
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Ray Cassick wrote: That's why a development team should hire GOOD developers.
Yes. Of course. As I've said, no matter what the tool ultimately it comes down to the people.
But I'm coming from the perspective of 14 years of being brought into existing projects, or starting new projects in existing teams.
I don't have the option (generally) of getting the team and the infrastructure the way I like.
I am seriously considering throwing my hat at it and I have spoken to a few companies about joining them full time, but I'll only do it if I know I'm joining somewhere that is doing software properly (or at least seriously trying to hit that ideal).
I've reached the point where I'll take the pay cut if I have to in order to work with good guys and gals.
In the meantime I'm faced with debugging our profession as best I can.
Boy, as a profesion we sure do suck.
Right now I'm faced with the problems that aren't even the fault of the developers surrounding me. There is nobody to fire because the code that's screwing me up now comes from a Vendor, and no, dropping the vendor isn't an option either.
And Yes, even if my notion of keeping developers away from the DB for as long as possible were to take hold in this company it wouldn't fix the problem of Vendors shipping bad DB Code.
But it would be a start.
We need to make a start.
The Packages and Procs and Views that surround a Database are an API. They need to be given the same respect as any API.
They are perceived as something less than an API. Something more pliable than an API.
I so often hear the excuse that you should put logic into stored procs because Stored Procs are easier to change than code.
THEY ARE NOT. They are exactly as difficult to change as code. You have the same difficulties of keeping backward compatibility of interfaces.
I would contend that the "belief" that the DB is easier to change than code is a big part of the problem.
I'm not saying you should't use Procs packages etc.
I'm just saying that it shouldn't be the no-brainer people seem to want it to be. Particularly when you or your team are no-brainers.
-Rd
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"Treat the DB as a data store only"
Sorry but that’s not any better a philosophy to follow either unless your DB and use load is so small that performance doesn't matter.
The problem is one of 2 competing camps in which few are able to work with the other, less are knowledgeable about both and even fewer can properly work in and properly use each as it is intended to be.
Your right in that the DB should be your data store and your App should be your interface to the user but you don't place your business logic in your app just because you don’t like or aren't familiar with using T-SQ/ or PL-SQL. When procedural or OOP types trying to do their own IUD's (Inserts, Updates and/or Deletes) they almost always resort to that most foul of all things in SQL programming the CURSOR. They do this because they get the CURSOR concept and so they can use it with far less effort. The problem is that CURSOR is Latin for "Slow this Mo-Fo Down" and so performance and good design get thrown out like last year’s lowest rated reality TV show.
The answer is if you know how to use both, the OOP/Procedural app side and the RBDMS/SQL side then use each as they should be. If you are one who likes CURSORS then you got no business writing DML statements. On the flip side if you can't properly design and instantiate classes and objects or worse you ask what the difference is then you got no business in Visual Studio. Experience however shows that more often you have developer types doing too much DML coding in their app instead of leaving it to the more knowledgeable DBA types then the reverse. Most DBA's are happy not dealing with the OOP world and so you don’t really have to worry about them crossing over where they shouldn’t.
Reading SAMS “SQL in 24 Hours” no more makes a developer a good DBA then “.Net in 24 Hours or less” makes a DBA a good developer.
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You make some good points, but you're replying to only half of a quote... He said:
Treat the DB as a data store only
*unless* the client has the infrastructure and the expertise to support using the DB for more.
In other words, don't mess with stored procedures unless you (or your client) has the skill-set available to support and maintain them.
So you guys seem to be pretty much in agreement
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It's not the tool that's used, it's the tool that uses it!
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Transvestites - Roberts in Disguise!
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No, there's more to it than "poorly written anything is junk". The problem is structural in nature, not just a matter of bad coders.
The problem introduced here is actually very similar to "DLL hell". An application's domain of code-based dependencies and interactions is well mapped and tracked by modern programming tools. Typically you define a "solution" or something along those lines, with all your code together tracked in source control, and have a build process that carefully lays out what is dependent on what.
Stored procedures are an aberration from this entire model. They're dependencies that you don't build in, they sit out there somewhere outside the same domain of control and tracking, and they change. Or they don't, and they become one-use things that build up in a giant, unstructured list, violating both notions of code organization and code re-use. They're like web services, in that they are exposed for use, and then you never really know who or what is using them, and so they are really hard, compared to regular code, to be confident in changing or eliminating. All kinds of applications, services, and other database objects could have come to rely on an SP over time, but the dependencies are invisible, and it takes a lot of work to track them down, and sometimes isn't even possible.
Don't get me wrong, SP's are actually important, for performance reasons, for code safety reasons, and so on. But they definitely break the model of good code practices that we all want to follow, not breaking it just because of coders being good or bad, but because these things exist in a different arena outside the bounds of the models and practices that good programmers put in place to manage their projects.
They also make themselves frustrating in two other ways.
#1, They lend themselves to obfuscated code in a way that regular programming languages do not. SQL is designed as a query language, not a procedural, object-oriented, or business object modeling language. Things that are perfectly clear and can be documented and written very clearly in, say, C#, are very messy in SQL. This would be okay-- use each language for its own best purpose-- except...
#2, They nearly always wind up including more than just data queries. Admittedly this is partly-- but not completely-- an architectural or coder-dependent decision, but SP's tend to absorb business logic and destroy the multi-tiered design principles that you worked so hard to keep to. You wind up with a design that looks like this:
[Presentation] <--> [Business logic] <--> [Data Access] <--> [Hybrid Raw Data/Data Access/Business Logic Layer].
That's even worse than the normal, unavoidable slight overlap or crossover between adjoining layers; the business logic appears in two places that aren't even next to each other. Furthermore, now your business logic belongs half to the programmer and half to the DBA, and you lose one of the major purposes of having tiered architecture in the first place, which is the ability to, as much as possible, contain all related concerns in one tier that can be modified (largely) independently of the others.
And you also have now just removed your business logic-- arguably the most important part of the application to control carefully and track changes for-- from the application's main area of source control and issue tracking, unless you are strictly considering every stored procedure to belong to exactly one and only one application, somehow enforcing this, and doing extra work to try to keep good track of them in the same source control system (made easier with some systems than others). (And even then, you're stuck dumping the stored procedures into a giant bin, where you're likely to have naming collisions and end up with a gigantic list than nobody wants to venture into to find something.)
You're also removing from the developers the part that most logically should belong to them. They are developing applications, which means they are designing how things work, which means they are primarily existing in the business/application logic realm. For some types of applications, there are designers who do a lot of the presentation layer, and DBA's should be heavily involved in the DAL, but developers are there to make the application work right. If you put lots of business logic in the database, then you're handing off stuff that developer/analysts should be good at, to the database admin/analysts, who are supposed to be good at other things-- namely, storing and extracting data.
Of course, you can't be perfectly pure about anything in real life. But as a general rule, stored procedures should be there to return data, and they should be designed to do that well and quickly and efficiently. And yes, arguably they do need to understand business objects to the extent of being able to maintain the integrity of a data store. But if they get too mixed up in the jobs of trying to be the application, things get way too messy.
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Have a 5 from me for perfectly expressing the point I was trying but failing to make.
-Rd
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Yeah, I pretty much agree and haven't used stored procs hardly anywhere. I also try to use very generic SQL when ever possible to avoid problem swapping out databases.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E.
Comport Computing
Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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Except when it comes to security - isolating code that changes the database into stored procedures that accept parameters helps guard against some of the most common security violations - SQL injection attacks, and far too few coders seem to appreciate the effort required to adequately ensure that SQL statements build and submitted to the database are adequately cleansed to prevent this.
This scenario comes to mind: Little Bobby Tables (XKCD)
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Rob Grainger wrote: SQL injection attacks ... far too few coders seem to appreciate the effort required to adequately ensure that SQL statements ... adequately cleansed to prevent this.
It's not that hard, is it? Provided you know what the string delimter and escape characters are, there's no problem. For example, in SQL Server, escape all string parameter values by doubling up any single quote character (thus escaping them), and wrap the whole string in a pair of single quote characters (thus defining the limits of the string to the parser), and you're sorted.
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...or just use Parameters instead - it makes the code easier to read as a bonus...
Real men don't use instructions. They are only the manufacturers opinion on how to put the thing together.
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Could you supply example code of how to use parameters with an IN clause, where the number of items in the in clause is not known until runtime?
I've never seen a solution to that one...
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Not without thinking about it for a while!
But if you are doing things like that, you should know what you are doing anyway rather than just suck-it-and-see which most seem to try. 
Real men don't use instructions. They are only the manufacturers opinion on how to put the thing together.
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You might be thinking for a while. As far as I'm aware, it's not possible.
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You can't use parameters with an IN clause.
You would have to use something similar to "WHERE ((col1 = @parm1) OR (col1 = @parm2)) ..." which is easy enough to build at runtime.
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True, but it rules out stored procedures...
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You could use table value parameters to pass multiple values in one parameter, I don't use stored procedures for most projects though.
Unless I am going to be performing the same query from 2 different applications or the query is extremely complex I always use paramaterized queries.
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You could try using a table variable to essentially perform the operation.
Add the values to the table variable and join on the table.
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