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I graduated from college a little under a year ago. I was amazed that out of the 10 organizations I interviewed with, only one asked me one what my GPA was and what my major was in. Being prodominantly a web programmer, I took only two classes that remotely dealt with anything I do now. The rest I can thank my internship, my own pet project that pushed me to learn new things, and Amazon for delivering all these books that have populated my shelf and helped me along the way.
If you're in school, work outside the box. Just going to school doesn't cut it. Everyone wanted to see something more tangible. Once I had 3 months of prof. exp. under my belt I updated my resume on HotJobs and Monster for kicks. I get steady offers coming in weekly that would double my salary. Work outside the box
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But college gives you a very nice background and overview of the technologies.
Many VB programmers don't even know how to implement basic data structures
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Well, I wouldn't call a VB programmer a programmer. VB is something that the economy departement can write stuff in, that's not especially reassuring, is it
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Whohoo! How about you make some kind of useful posting!
Chris, I for one wouldn't mind if you made this thread vanish. I'm not for censorship per se, but idiotic postings don't do anything but lessen the experience for all of us
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Unfortunately I am unwilling to censor or moderate postings unless they are offensive or damaging
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The key is that you can do what you say you can do. There are High school kids that are great programmers, even better than some 'professionals' I work with. Knowledge is key it doesn't matter where you get it. When interviewing programmers I always ask them things that I don't expect they know, just to see how they answer. I would rather hire someone who is self taught and loves computers, than a recient graduate who thinks that they can make a million dollars as a programmer.
-- Andy Wergedal
-- CIO 11st.com (et all
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I totally agree,
Also I prefer bilingual or polyglot persons who display an interest in Computers, and we concentrate on non Computer areas during the interview process, like what books they are reading, the current economic situation etc.
The theory is that if the applicant is bright enough, he/she will manage to learn what we are doing in a short amount of time anyway.
As an ancient graduate with 6 programming language changes myself and various methodologies , I regard less than 1% of what I had learn't is relevant today.
Thus now Qualifications mean to me, an applicant can study and stick with it for several years.
And Industry Experience means an applicant can settle down in a role for a specific amount of time.
Regardz
Colin Davies
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There are some skills that are hard to learn outside of the university. I never finished college
and I spend a lot of time trying to improve my understanding of mathematics. I don't feel that
computer programming is an important thing to learn in school. It changes too fast doesn't it?
On the other hand, the ability to communicate and think clearly and to rapidly acquire new
skills is forged in a good academic program.
I haven't always valued math skills as much as I do now. The need to understand the
combinatorial effects of the problems I am working on these days has me struggling through
abstruse texts with unfamiliar notations and concepts. A degree in math would sure be a
comfort.
The consequence of an incomplete education for me has been a lot of money spent on books,
a lot of time studying when I'd rather be playing, a constant worry that I've overlooked
something important, and too much time trying to solve NP complete problems without
understanding what they were.
The experience would have come anyway. Hindsight being what it is - I'd go with all the
college I could get
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Personally I feel that the value of a [good] degree is that it does not teach you what to think, but teaches your how to think.
I guess I am biased since I come from a mathematics/physics background, but I feel that the problem solving skills I gained doing these courses was infinitely better than the courses I did learning Pascal and Modula-2. Still - there is definitely something to be said for having a solid background in fundamental computing science issues such as program design, testing, logic etc. The actual syntax or technology you use to implement the logic is almost irrelevant.
I think the best combination is to firstly understand the problems (via tertiary courses) and then understand the tools you will be working with (via certification, self learning, peer exchange like CodeProject etc).
Just my ramblings...
Chris Maunde
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Nice ramblings Chris, 
True possibly you are biased and that is hard to change.
Yes problem solving is a major ability, we and others should be looking for in applicants.
Unfortunatly it is extremely hard to test for;
Sure we can easily test the ability of an individual to solve a 2 minute problem, but a normal work based problem can take days of research to solve.
Heres a top question,
Here at ABC systems we wish to develop an application to retrieve data from the "xyz" database and post it to a "rst"
information exchange application, we have never done this before how should we proceed.
A good answer, (that would get the job straight away would be)
I'll find some NG's and forums that deal with "xyz" and "rst" download them and build a database of the old postings. Then I'd search the old postings for "books" on "xyz" and "rst".
Thus just as problem solving is important knowing where to look for good answers is just as important, More today than 10 years ago.
>>The actual syntax or technology you use to implement the logic is almost irrelevant.<<
I agree completly with that comment.
Regardz
Colin Davie
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I was excited about the thought of getting MS certified until recently. It seems people who do the hiring don't think much of it... and from what the poll results seem to indicate, neither do many here.
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This is the most surprising result of all. I've seen many job adverts asking specifically for MSCE (or similar) qualifications - but that was a while ago and from the responses here it seems these sorts of qualifications are no longer sufficient
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They advertise it as a qualification, so they can advertise it to their customers that they have MCSE, etc. staff. The tests don't prove you know the application or skill, although MS has been trying to change this. It shows you know how to read, study, take a test, and pass. Companies use it as an outside hiring requirement, it doesn't add to your value or affect your salary. It does allow you to add one more logo/patch to your already cluttered business card. At least from what I have seen
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Based on my own experience (I hold a SQL Server 6.5 certification), I'd say: there's a lot they don't cover. I think hiring authorities are more wary now, because of the holes, and because (as others have said), sometimes these tests are really a measure of how good one's memory might be. However, I do believe they have this value: they will expose you to concepts and technologies; you'll know more about what kinds of solutions exist, even if you don't have a deep understanding of how they work. That can be a good starting point toward solving a customer's problem
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Also, I think it depends on the certs... MSCE is a dime a dozen these days, but something more involved, like MSCD is quite a bit harder to get.
I also think certs matter more if you're going to be a contractor, than a corporate developer.
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Even thought I think that degrees are 'necessary/very useful', I would say that "commercial" experience is equaly useful. It seems that both are useful. More - it is useful to make a degree (the higher the better) AND gain the commercial experience at the same time. Why not? These days it is technically possible, many companies will offer you the job from home. This way you can study and gain the real-life experice. I choose that way and it pays off - when you graduate you have diploma and few nice job/contract certificates. It helps out to get a to keep good job after graduation..
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If you'd asked me a couple of years ago, I would have said that commercial experience is really all that matters. However, having worked with between fifteen to twenty C++ programmers of various levels of experience, I have found that the programmers who produce the more maintainable and extensible code which fits the original design and have a clear grasp of the language are those that have a good computing degree.
Obviously, having commercial experience is very important, but I have had the "pleasure" of working with C++ programmers who still don't grasp the basics of simple design and the language they're using after four+ years experience.
Has anyone got contrary experience to mine
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I can tell the same from my experience. My experience is even worse, since I had a "pleasure" of being developer in the team lead by the guy with "commercial" experience but no academic background. It was really hard to explain to that guy the basic concepts of the development process and design - he pushed the "short fast way" (remember, the DARK SIDE is quick and easy), causing the problems I was to blame later on..
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I couldn't agree more. A BS/MS in comp science is necessary for all system developers although it would have been nicer if we had them for VC too. I guess it's hard to find guys with experience in systems programming working through GUI code .
Sad to say most start ups fail as they don't have the acedemic edge of a Aho Ullman or a Tremblay. But all that matters in the end is how you apply them
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I couldn't agree more. A BS/MS in comp science is necessary for all system developers although it would have been nicer if we had them for VC too. I guess it's hard to find guys with experience in systems programming working through GUI code .
Sad to say most start ups fail as they don't have the acedemic edge of a Aho Ullman or a Tremblay. But all that matters in the end is how you apply them
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I'm glad you have that experience.
My experience from people that I had to deal with that got employed are that they are *severely* lacking crucial knowledge. Exmaples? No one of these had any experience in software _design_. Seven out of eight (and the eight knwe it out of private interest) knwe whar CRC was.
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A degree is of no importance to the quality of the programmer!
A guy who goes to school and sticks to the courses, will never be a good programmer.
On the other hand someone who reads, works and studies hard can become a good programmer in a timespan that is shorter than four or five years of university.
I have been studying veterinarian sciences, but finally became a programmer. I've seen students that will never be good veterinarians (sticking to the courses only), and I honestly can say that I am a better programmer than some guys with a degree in computer science.
It all depends on the person and the effort he's doing
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