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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: and by the time I reached Meshuggah I thought I'd lose my lunch (from boring to just plain noise)
Funny you should say that.
Meshuggah have taken a mathematical approach to metal.
They use all kinds of strange signatures and somehow end up just right.
Their control of instruments is far better than any band you've just mentioned and their songs are more complex.
They defined a genre (math metal or djent) and create some of the most complex music in the world, yet you simply dismiss it as noise.
COULD IT BE THAT "BEST" AND "QUALITY" ARE PURELY A PERSONAL PREFERENCE!? 
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Sander Rossel wrote: Their control of instruments is far better than any band you've just mentioned and their songs are more complex.
Too bad it's hidden by all that background noise coming out of their amplifiers.
Sander Rossel wrote: COULD IT BE THAT "BEST" AND "QUALITY" ARE PURELY A PERSONAL PREFERENCE!
This opens up a philosophical point. For example, is there such a thing as a measure of "Good and Evil"? Actually, there is! That famous Golden Rule, "Do not do unto others what you would not have others do unto you" is it. BUT, it's also a 100% contextual measure. It can vary from culture to culture (person to person, etc.) So quality, also subjective, falls into this category.
However, there is one caveat to this:
Unless I give my opinion, in which case, I am right. That even applies to this claim.
Perhaps caveat is incorrect - axiom. Yeeah, That's it. Axiom!
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: is there such a thing as a measure of "Good and Evil"? Actually, there is!
No there isn't.
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: That famous Golden Rule, "Do not do unto others what you would not have others do unto you" is it.
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law!
You are free to give your opinion.
But, keeping with your "do unto others..." belief, maybe you should tone it down a bit.
You may not have noticed, but in these few messages you called me a brainless twit (after all, I am a millennial), a fool (at least that's how I interpreted the Candide quotes because that was on top) and pretty much all of my hobbies shyte ((modern) music, games and movies).
I know better than to take that personal, so no hurt feelings, but I'm sure you could've made your points in other words 
I mean sure, there are foolish brainless twit millennials that listen to shyte music, and then there are boomers who do the same 
Now Gen Z... Those guys are REALLY hopeless 
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Sander Rossel wrote: Now Gen Z... Those guys are REALLY hopeless
"I think he's got it! By George he's got it!" - slight paraphrase from Shaw's Pygmalion.
As for the "Golden Rule" thing - don't think of it religiously - think of it as a matter of a behavior principal; simply a line (with many a cultural difference) sorting things. Something could be good in one culture and bad in another. It could even extend to your "do what though wilt" philosophy if that's the cultural norm. I see that as a failed philosophy as soon as you have more than on or two people. If a few get together, they can impose their will on the smaller groups . . . and through a sequence of steps that the grouping enhances/enables you end up with effectively a monarchy where only the "king" can do as he wilt.
Actually, it's interesting in that the "do as though wilt" philosophy is, on a societal scale, a negative feedback loop. The survival instinct in human nature assures this.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: That famous Golden Rule, "Do not do unto others what you would not have others do unto you"
I think in inessential that you have added a double negation.
In any case, it is dubious. Like, it is interpreted to mean: Do not let any breach of moral principles come to others what you do not want to come to you. You can use The Golden Rule to "protect" others from all sort of immorality, any kind of political opinions, any sort of information that you would like the world to be without.
Lots of "do good" is a disguise for moral, cultural and economic censorship.
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No - you are now taking it to the position that you will force others to think your way - would you want others to force you to think there way.
In some (in my opinion) wretched puritanical society, perhaps everyone with the group want to have their behavior watched and regulated - then, within that group, it becomes "good" in the sense that you expect others to be doing the same to your, or, because of their cultural design, not "to you" but "for you". And if you're not of that philosophy then it really really sucks.
That the point when I said it is not the same everywhere - this is more a cultural norm (if you are alone, what does it matter?). For the most part, the norms evolve for the general welfare based upon adaption to their living conditions (resources, weather, etc.).
Cultural norms on, for example, an island paradise - with abundance always freely available all year round would develop quite differently than in a temperate climate where the good times (spring, summer, fall) and spent preparing for the bad times (winter) which will inevitably come. Good and Evil in such places would differ in a lot of ways - out of necessity.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Sander Rossel wrote: Their straight on rock music, featuring not so many chords or notes, which every beginner now plays on their instruments,
As a kid / youth, that is how I related to it. Easily accessible music.
Later, I have taken a second look, mostly through arragements for chorus. I have - somewhat to my surprise - discovered how sophisticated some of this music is. Some of the composers excel in sophisticated chord progressions and transformations - I never knew the Beatles were so beautiful before I started working with it. Lloyd Webber is a master of various rythmic styles, and he is definitely not alone in that field. The lyrics of many rock groups are certainly beautiful poerty. For the larger works, like rock operas, you come to realize how well composed they are, in the sense of structure, overall progression - full of internal interconnections and hints like a great mystery novel...
As a youngster, I don't think I needed to see such qualities in order to enjoy the music, and I couldn't claim to know the great from the mediocre music; I just nodded to those experts telling me which were great and which were worthless. Now that I dig into it at a mature age, I fully realize what made the great masters into great masters. The majority of hte music that survived is not characterized by "not so many chords or notes", but by high sophistication in rythm, harmonies, melodic lines and lyrics.
(To pick an example: Have you noticed how over-represented 5/4 ballads are among those who survive for many years, considering how few of the "new" songs are in 5/4? Five-beat tunes, often switching between 3+2 and 2+3 for creating a rythmic tension, provide something that a steady 4/4 won't. If you are like me: You may know some tunes very well without ever thinking of them as five-beat tunes - they are simply "right". Some seven-beat tunes are that way, too: You don't think of is as a somewhat "unusual" rythm because that is just the way that well known tune is!)
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And I'm sure you'll find such music again if you'll look for it.
For example, Meshuggah, who have taken an almost mathematic approach to metal.
Of course it's still metal so people will quickly dismiss it as "noise".
Or Tool, who are less metal, but perhaps not less technical.
There are plenty of good bands in all genres who add technical prowess to their music.
And even if they don't, they may have something unique, like Sunn 0))), think of it what you want, but his "music" (if you can still call it that) was groundbreaking (quite literally with those bass sounds).
Member 7989122 wrote: Have you noticed how over-represented 5/4 ballads are
I really don't listen to ballads, so no.
As a musician, ex-drummer and current pianist, I'm really not all about easily accessible music, although that's sometimes nice.
I do, however, enjoy some current pop music (although I mostly don't).
My point was that the points Balboos makes have been made about your generation of music as well.
And about the music before that too, and before that, etc.
When you compare The Beatles to classical music, you can easily dismiss it as simplistic.
I always say that no matter how simplistic it was, Mozart or Beethoven didn't compose Sgt. Pepper though.
HOWEVER, all that is besides the point.
Music is here to enjoy, no matter it's form.
What you like may not be for me and vice versa, so who are you (and "you" is Balboos in this specific case) to dismiss modern music as trash or noise or whatever?
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Fact is, I write off a share of the classical music as "simplistic". Certainly not all of it, but some of is written according to very strict, regular rules both harmonically and rythmically. Some of the great composers managed to create great music even within strict rules, but some of it is about as execiting as what you could get from a fully automated composition program on your PC.
My "problem" with some of the modern music (I am mostly thinking of music with significan jazz elements) is that when it is not simplistic, is is so harmonically dense, so fat, that my ears are getting tired before the piece is completed. Actually, that was my major reason for moving from the romantic era symponies to smaller ensembles, chamber music, baroque, folk music groups: (Stereo freaks have been talking about "listening fatigue" for fifty years - I experienced it even live, with no stereo system involved  )
Most romantic symphonies have great dynamics, so your ears get to rest a little now and then. With lots of jazzrock, the dynamic range is less than 6 dB... Too often I do not have the mental energy it takes to really listen to that complex, massive sound wall enough to appreciate it. And it ends up as nothing but a complex, massive sound wall. I tend to prefer music that is easier on the ear, showing the composer's (or performer's) genius in the small details.
If you happen to like crossover music - a couple of recommendations:
Play Vincenzo Capezzuto "Wondrous machine" (L'Arpeggiata)[^] at really high volume, and imagine how a rock gruou could have adopted this praise of the wondrous machine (composed before the first useful steam engine was built) as their newly composed tune.
The same singer and group, in Twas within a furlong[^] they stay within a "classical" framework, but the way they sneak in jazzy instruments, solos and rythms, in a way that feels natural and obvious, is just great. And the lyrics is just great, in our meetoo-age!
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Member 7989122 wrote: some of is written according to very strict, regular rules both harmonically and rythmically
Like the standard ending. Pom. Pom. Pooom!
Member 7989122 wrote: My "problem" with some of the modern music (I am mostly thinking of music with significan jazz elements) is that when it is not simplistic, is is so harmonically dense, so fat, that my ears are getting tired before the piece is completed.
There can be brilliance in simplicity.
It's like when writing code, make it as simple as possible, but not simpler.
I think Satie does that well, relatively few notes (although not necessarily simple).
Of course in music, you don't always want it simple, but some music can really wear you down.
Member 7989122 wrote: Actually, that was my major reason for moving from the romantic era symponies to smaller ensembles, chamber music, baroque, folk music groups
I hear you there!
I've always preferred baroque and chamber music over classical and romantic, save for the nationalistic period within romanticism where I love the folk influences.
Member 7989122 wrote: a couple of recommendations
I can't say I recognize Purcell in it
I also have to admit I don't know Purcell very well.
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George Bernard Shaw said (in paraphrase): Youth, is the most beautiful thing in this world — and what a pity that it has to be wasted on children!
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Hey - that stuff's old even compared to me. It was originally from a guy by the name of "George Bernard Shaw". Related to these things called "books" .
Books are a sort of old-DOS-style text screen thing except it doesn't need batteries.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: except it doesn't need batteries
So it's like modern electronics? No battery life 
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Yes - yes . . . whatever you said. Don't lose any sleep over it.
Perhaps, in the morning, this will all just be a bad dream . . . if you are lucky.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: a brainless twit (or Millennial
A difference that makes no difference is no difference.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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If Microsoft wanted them to have a brain, it would have installed with Windows.
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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No
I'm not sure how many cookies it makes to be happy, but so far it's not 27.
JaxCoder.com
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I have a "spare" laptop that I use for comparatively wild and uncautious browsing. I never log into anyplace, ever, on it, so it pretty much can do me no evil. Occasionally, an obvious infected site has been hit - it's been forwarded to porn-site "ads" that just won't take no for an answer (well, I can kill their windows but they are persistent - and/or opened by the dozen.
The thing is, I was thinking of using it as a travel laptop - it's a small i5 and still has decent battery life after about six or seven years. So - how do I make sure it's really "clean" . . . without a low-level format and realoadimg the O/S and everything else? This latter is my normal "to be really really sure" method. I'd loose the random browsing ability (whilst on travel) but I can use a VPN so I can check my mail, pay a bill or two, and otherwise use it like a normal PC.
So - I'm looking for options. Or even description of failed options so I can avoid those.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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If you intend to use it as a travel laptop, you should use the scrape clean and reinstall method - once. After you have the system exactly as you want it for travel, make an image backup of the entire disk.
Before each trip, restore the image to the laptop, instantly getting rid of any virus and other crap that may have been installed.
This will ensure that only the most persistent of viruses (those that write themselves into the BIOS/UEFI/device firmware or some such) will remain. If you have one of those, I suggest nuking the entire state containing the laptop; nuking the county is insufficient. 
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Alas, I don't want to go through the setup. It may even still has a clean image in the image partition (i.e., with drivers). That's always the easy part. It may not be clean.
It may be you're solution is the only solution - in which case I'll look around for some old laptop. If it weren't for a possible lack of a monitor, I'd bring my NUC (you did mean that kind of nuke, of course) and all would be well.
Still - thanks are indeed in order - there may be no solution but the long slow ![Elephant | [mastadon]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/elephant.gif) for reformatting and reloading. Then the imaging. It's just the summer and that kind of effort will take some manning-up that I'd rather save for spackling.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Daniel Pfeffer wrote: I suggest nuking the entire state containing the laptop
Ripley insisted: Nuke the entire site from orbit...it's the only way to be sure.
I'd go along with that.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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If you've used it "for comparatively wild and uncautious browsing", and you now find yourself with a need to trust what's on that laptop...wipe it. You already have the means to reinstall the OS, and have a copy of all the proprietary drivers it needs...don't you?
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: pay a bill or two
Definitely wipe and restart. Especially if you're going to use it to access something that is somehow connected to any form of payment method. A VPN won't help you if your system's already infected with something (and you just can't be sure about it). That's not what VPNs do.
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Per the VPN on an infected system: I realize a key logger, for example, will get the info before it's sent to the VPN (else I'd not have posted to begin with)>
As for the proprietary drivers: they system came "ready to roll" with the backup partition. This was a gift/donation after Superstorm Sandy - a "media laptop". It sucked for work but was better than what I had left, As a media PC, it has nice sound, a very wide screen, and no documentation (let alone a disk to reload the O/S). And, of course, in PC world of things, it's pretty old.
So - I suspect a lot of drivers came installed - and they're on that restore partition. It may be compromised.
Without question, if it were anything like a normal PC I'd just wipe it and do the right thing. Hunting for the drivers, one by one? That can be a very annoying and frustrating route. Possibly even ending in failure.
It may just be time a buy a "Travel Laptop" specifically configured (and imaged) for the travel "experience". A few hundred bucks buys a lot of pizza . . . .
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Most manufacturers will let you download the restore image for when the HDD goes tits-up.
Checked their website?
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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