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charlieg10-Oct-13 3:42

10-Oct-13 3:42

Last I heard, the NHS's expenses were exploding... true or false? Not arguing, just comparing perspectives...

Charlie Gilley
<italic>You're going to tell me what I want to know, or I'm going to beat you to death in your own house.

"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759

glennPattonWork310-Oct-13 4:12

glennPattonWork3

10-Oct-13 4:12

True, too many old people, not enough youngster paying in!

chriselst10-Oct-13 4:17

10-Oct-13 4:17

NHS Going Open Source[^]

“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks

chriselst10-Oct-13 4:29

10-Oct-13 4:29

Government expenditure on NHS has remained roughly the same for the last 4 years or so (around 105 of your American billions for England), since it was started in 1948 expenditure has risen about 10 fold.

“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks

charlieg10-Oct-13 4:37

10-Oct-13 4:37

Question - where do your government elites go for healthcare?

chriselst10-Oct-13 4:42

10-Oct-13 4:42

charlieg wrote:
Question - where do your government elites go for healthcare?

Well as those currently at the top of the government are lizard people, they have their own fleet of space vets to keep them healthy.

“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks

Nagy Vilmos10-Oct-13 4:44

Nagy Vilmos

10-Oct-13 4:44

speramus in juniperus

Nagy Vilmos10-Oct-13 4:45

Nagy Vilmos

10-Oct-13 4:45

If you can, you go private. Even with private it is often more expedient to use the NHS; as my brother did when his brain started rotting.

speramus in juniperus

chriselst10-Oct-13 4:52

10-Oct-13 4:52

I get private healthcare (BUPA) through work, but I have no idea how to use it, so I've kept with the NHS for the 4 or 5 years I've had it.

Been in hospital for treatment probably about a dozen times in that time, a couple of operations, numerous physio sessions.

“I believe that there is an equality to all humanity. We all suck.” Bill Hicks

Mark_Wallace10-Oct-13 8:23

Mark_Wallace

10-Oct-13 8:23

I admit to having no idea what went on over there (except that so much misinformation was given by all sides that it's doubtful that even God knows what the truth is), but all they had to do is say: "This is how they do it in England/France/[pick a European country], and it works there, so let's do it like that".

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

charlieg10-Oct-13 9:38

10-Oct-13 9:38

Remember, there are certain lightning rods in the US that will absolutely fry a politician. Going European would be one of them Smile | :)

No offense.

Just listening to this discussion reminds me that the entire debate has been mis-categorized completely. Yes, we have issues in our healthcare system, but Obamacare seizes private property and moves it around to other people. And yes, I am being consistent. I don't support Medicaire, Medicaid, food stamps or anything else.

Ask a 30 something who has been paying $120 month for health care. It's going to double if he's lucky. Why is his cost going up? Because someone has to pay for old farts like me. This is nothing more than theft.

Colin Rae10-Oct-13 10:06

Colin Rae

10-Oct-13 10:06

Most people seem to forget that the 30 something pays $120/month only because his employer has heavily subsidized his healthcare. The employer usually picks up the lion's share of the insurance cost. This is why it is called an employee benefit.

The amount the employee has to pay is basically decided by the employer...

(BTW I've seen a lot of complaints about how the healthcare exchange insurance is "more expensive and less coverage than I get now". Well, no wonder! There's no employer paying for most of it. People with employer-subsidized insurance would be crazy to think they could get a better deal in the exchanges.)

charlieg10-Oct-13 10:11

10-Oct-13 10:11

Valid point, so I should clarify. The increases people are seeing are for those who buy their own insurance - not paid for by employers. Basically, what you used to be able to get from E-Insurance and other online places has radical price increases. Yes, if you have employer provided coverage, you'll see a fraction of the cost increase.

The new system rolling out favors larger employers. Unless of course you work for a company that cannot handle the cost increases.

Colin Rae10-Oct-13 10:33

Colin Rae

10-Oct-13 10:33

Yes, fortunately I have insurance through my employer. The full cost of insurance is downright scary, even before any potential increases. It all seems very inefficient... Smile | :)

Mark_Wallace10-Oct-13 19:39

Mark_Wallace

10-Oct-13 19:39

charlieg wrote:
Ask a 30 something who has been paying $120 month for health care. It's going to double if he's lucky. Why is his cost going up? Because someone has to pay for old farts like me. This is nothing more than theft.

You'll find that what we in Europe can't get our heads around is how anyone can think that $120 a month is more valuable than a human life.

.. Especially in a country which produces endless "entertainment" where people vehemently declare that they'd give up everything for one more hour with their father/mother.

It appears that being able to watch that kind of "entertainment" is worth at least $120 a month, but making those extra hours available to everyone (not just the protagonists of the "entertainment") isn't.

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

charlieg11-Oct-13 3:17

11-Oct-13 3:17

Well, setting aside our warped sense of priorities - I'm not sure I follow you. Are you implying that all of the people who are complaining about the cost increases also have their smart phones and television?

Mark_Wallace11-Oct-13 3:27

Mark_Wallace

11-Oct-13 3:27

Put it this way: Britain was at its lowest point in history -- country and empire in tatters, no money, and with huge debts for B-grade war materials -- when it introduced the National Health Service.

The NHS costs everyone 9% of his income, between a lower and an upper limit -- it costs everyone a lot.

Ask any Briton if the NHS should be dissolved, despite the costs.

As far as Europe (and Canada) is concerned, you're all quite mad (or stupidly narrow-minded/greedy) for not wanting something similar.

I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!

charlieg11-Oct-13 4:06

11-Oct-13 4:06

Well okay, I'm not really arguing here, trying to learn more. I work with a guy who spends/spent a good deal of time in Germany. He speaks highly of the system as well.

Please tell me what these lower/upper limits are. Based on the 9% rate, you just saved me a pantload of insurance costs Smile | :)

jschell11-Oct-13 9:20

11-Oct-13 9:20

charlieg wrote:
Ask a 30 something who has been paying $120 month for health care. It's going to double if he's lucky. Why is his cost going up? Because someone has to pay for old farts like me.

And what about the 45 year old that has seen cost increases for the past 15 years?

Not to mention of course that for many 30 years olds they don't have health insurance. And they were even less likely to have it 10 years ago - close to 30%.

And if one excludes government programs 40% of that group are not paying for anything - even when they get sick.

charlieg wrote:
Yes, we have issues in our healthcare system, but Obamacare seizes private property and moves it around to other people

The first means that a fix is required because the current system is not failing but rather has failed. The cost increases of the current system are not sustainable. Even excluding drastic measures such as declining all care to any who cannot pay the cost increases would mean most could not afford it in the future.

The second is alarmist nonsense.

charlieg11-Oct-13 9:28

11-Oct-13 9:28

What about him? You illustrate my point that apparently I am unable to convey. Yes, the current system has failed. We all know that the current insured subsidize the uninsured. It's the only way hospitals survive.

Why must they cover the uninsured? Government mandates. So, the distortion has already occurred. The ACA simply amplifies things... it reduces competition and increases costs. The only reason the populace supported it (according to polling data) is that it was sold as free.

Alarmist nonsense? The government has been doing this since it was created. It's why our constitution enumerated the powers of the federal government, which has long since departed from it. The AFA is nothing more than a step into a single payer system with the exception of the ruling class.

jschell14-Oct-13 7:50

14-Oct-13 7:50

charlieg wrote:
The AFA is nothing more than a step into a single payer system with the
exception of the ruling class.

Ok but then the solution is a constitutional congress.

jschell10-Oct-13 9:28

10-Oct-13 9:28

charlieg wrote:
but I'll see if I can be fair.

Just in case you were wondering - no you were not even close to giving a "fair" representation of the topic. That would require presenting both sides.

charlieg wrote:
Worse, they just flat out lied to make it more acceptable

Nonsense.

charlieg wrote:
They made some predictions based on common sense:

As always - people who are actually capable of predicting the future should make a lot of money doing that rather than eking out a living by writing predictions.

charlieg wrote:
I have personally seen #1, 3, and 4 occur.

Since it is not now in force one can guarantee that there is no cause and effect in that statement.

And #1 is a flat out wrong given that it has been happening for 15 years, under the existing system, and long before the new system was proposed.

charlieg wrote:
So, as bumbling as government is, we want them "doing healthcare"?

Since the existing system is very badly broken and getting worse not better something needed to be done. Other nations manage to run fairly effective health care for the vast majority of their citizens and seem to do so at a fraction of the cost so one is left with the supposition that is not government but rather the US government that is left with any failure to implement.

charlieg10-Oct-13 9:41

10-Oct-13 9:41

Well, we disagree on the fairness. I recognize we have issues in the system. But the system does not belong to the government or the people. My health care is my health care. That is where the argument was lost.

"Flat out lied" - nonsense.

You just lost all of your credibility. This administration has done nothing but lie.

jschell11-Oct-13 9:06

11-Oct-13 9:06

charlieg wrote:
Well, we disagree on the fairness

Your treatment was very one-sided which means it was not fair.

charlieg wrote:
<layer>But the system does not belong to the government or the people. My health care is my health care. That is where the argument was lost.

The US is not an anarchy. Every facet is regulated. The current system is regulated both at the state and federal level. So obviously that has nothing to do with it.

charlieg wrote:
This administration has done nothing but lie.

Nonsense. Nothing but an attempt to get a rise and based on nothing but fantasy. At best based on a lack of knowledge about the difficulty associated with analyzing and running complex systems and how the difficulty increases as the systems grow. At worst just ignorance.