Welcome to the Lounge

13-Sep-23 6:58

My PC cannot run Win11, an i7-5820K. That's fine with me; it gives me a good excuse for not upgrading from Win10 Smile | :)

I'd really like to get more familiar with ARM - not as an IoT processor, or as a smartphone, but as a full-sized desktop machine. I'd be running Win11 and dotNet on that.

Are there CPians who has experience with any such machines? Which machines are available in the marketplace?

I am aware of the MS Volterra, but would prefer something with configuration flexibility more like my current full tower: A decent video card; ARM's "Mali" LEGs (Low Energy Graphics) are not quite at the level of the GeForce cards, are they? I'd like to plug in more standard memory. Room for more internal disks. Something like a standard ATX motherboard, only with a different CPU/Chipset.

Googling brings up some 2-4 year old solutions, for earlier ARM generations, or boards in the Arduino/RaspberryPi class (mostly for older, smaller ARMs).

Is Volterra the only option at the present time? MS is offering a full Win11 for ARM - are all its customers using Volterra?
Are any of you running Volterra and can report any experiences with it?

raddevus13-Sep-23 7:45

raddevus

13-Sep-23 7:45

There’s a really great YouTuber (Explaining Computers) who does great tests on h/w of all kinds and has done a lot of SBC (single board computers).
He has at least one video here[^], which explains ARM-based SBC.

It’s an unboxing with details and performance testing. That guy does a really great job of explaining options. It may ate least provide you with a start.

dandy7213-Sep-23 7:53

dandy72

13-Sep-23 7:53

I suspect it's still so early when it comes to Windows-on-ARM that you probably won't find an expandable general-purpose box with standard parts like you would for a bog-standard x86-based PC.

At this stage, I'd go for an already-built box that is supported end to end by its manufacturer - like, as you mentioned, the Volterra (which I admittedly know very little about). But expecting something like a standard PC, but running ARM?...I don't think the market is there yet.

Daniel Pfeffer13-Sep-23 10:18

Daniel Pfeffer

13-Sep-23 10:18

We have some ARM-based single-board computers at work, but I don't know of any ARM-based computer that allows for the configuration flexibility that you have in mind.

I know that at least some of these computers can run Windows for ARM, so Volterra is probably not MS's only target for this.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.

k505413-Sep-23 10:59

k5054

13-Sep-23 10:59

There is the Ampere Altra developers workstation. https://www.ipi.wiki/products/ampere-altra-developer-platform. I don't have one, and can't comment on its usability, but others seem to have got Win11 working on it: Ampere Altra Max - Windows, GPUs, and Gaming | Jeff Geerling

That all depends if you can A) live with the $2700 USD price tag and B) wait 6 weeks to get one.

Keep Calm and Carry On

trønderen15-Sep-23 6:30

15-Sep-23 6:30

That one is getting closer - but 96 cores may be somewhat over the top Smile | :)

The price tag is one thing. That "someone has managed to get Window running on it" is not very comforting to me. The guy doing the porting says that "Windows on Arm has zero support for graphics cards yet" - that is not comforting, either.

Also, HPC guys (buying this kind of machine) are sort of conservative. Even though ARMv9-A is two and a half years old, they stick to ARMv8. USB4 is four years old, they stick to USB3. My current PC has a 1 TB M.2 disk - they stick to 256 GB. They stick to DDR4 (yes, I know that current DDR5 chips are significant below it theoretical potential, but yet!)

Yet, I am happy to learn that such machines are available, so thanks for the info - even if I am not going to buy one.

honey the codewitch13-Sep-23 20:03

honey the codewitch

13-Sep-23 20:03

As dandy72 suggested it feels pretty early to make the switch yet. Expect problems for the next year or two while they work out the kinks.

Technology-wise, hypothetically for laptops and such, ARM is good option since it's low power, but pretty full featured - at least the ARM Cortex As typically are.

For desktops and workstations not so much. I wouldn't want to develop on one yet for a number of reasons.

I'd wait before you replace a primary machine with an ARM.

Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix

abmv14-Sep-23 5:06

abmv

14-Sep-23 5:06

You can check out ThinkPad X13s (13” Snapdragon) Laptop Snapdragon® 8cx Gen 3 Compute Platform (3.00 GHz up to 3.00 GHz)

Caveat Emptor.

"Progress doesn't come from early risers – progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things." Lazarus Long

EDV RZ Schröter15-Sep-23 1:21

EDV RZ Schröter

15-Sep-23 1:21

A couple weeks back I decided that I needed a decent ARM machine in order to have a development box with weak memory ordering (especially important for Java since it doesn't hide the problems like x86/x64 hardware and the .NET platform do).

I did an extensive review. Based on that I got myself a cheap ARM-based Chromebook and a Macbook Pro. Since I use JetBrains IDEs I can pick up on the Mac where I left off on my Wintel notebook and vice versa; the only thing I really miss on the Mac is LINQPad. Based on a month of working like this I can only say one thing: I should have gotten myself a juicy Macbook as soon as the M1 chip came out!

Re: ARM, anyone? -- Thanks for all replies

Gilles Plante15-Sep-23 15:00

Gilles Plante

15-Sep-23 15:00

You may buy a MacBook Pro with an M2 and virtualize Windiws 11 Wink | ;)

.

Edited a type

Gilles Plante

trønderen15-Sep-23 5:50

My apologies for the pending apocalypse...

15-Sep-23 5:50

Thanks for all the replies. It seems quite clear to me that I am a (at least) a year or two early, asking for a proper ARM based desktop. I am not in a rush to upgrade (and the day I get an ARM desktop, I will most certainly keep my x64 running next to it - lots of my old software tools will never be ported to ARM).

I most certainly want more flexibility than a laptop or notebook; they are no more extendable than the Volterra (which I have considered and rejected; lack of flexibility is one reason). Not only would I like to play around with ARM; I have recently done some reading on CUDA, but my 660Ti card is too old for running many of the samples in the CUDA programming guides I have picked up. I would like to plug in a more modern card - not for the speed (except to see how fast I can get my own code!) but for the 'compute capability', as nVidia calls it.

Also, if I buy a new PC in late 2023 (or most likely 2024-25), I would want a reasonably modern architecture. ARMv9-A is two and a half years old; I won't go for older ones. USB4 is four years old; I won't go for USB3.

So, thanks for the information. It confirms what I suspected: I need not panic yet. My old PC will do alright for another couple of years. I have plenty time for learning more about both ARM and CUDA before putting it into practice Smile | :)

Gary Wheeler13-Sep-23 4:56

Gary Wheeler

13-Sep-23 4:56

... but I emptied my work e-mail InBox this morning.

This hasn't happened in years.

Software Zen: delete this;

OriginalGriff13-Sep-23 5:16

OriginalGriff

13-Sep-23 5:16

Quick! Set up a Rule: "All incoming mail" ... "Send to Junk mail folder" Big Grin | :-D

"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!

trønderen13-Sep-23 5:28

13-Sep-23 5:28

Long ago, when we still had physical inboxes, a coworker of mine spent some time the quiet days between Christmas and New Year to work through his inbox. Near the bottom of it, he found a wall calendar for the year that still had three days left.

StarNamer@work13-Sep-23 6:08

StarNamer@work

13-Sep-23 6:08

A few years ago, the team I was working with decided we needed a holiday planner for the year, so ordered one which arrived about the 18th March as I recall. We hadn't decided where to put it by the following Tuesday, 24th March 2020, when the UK government order a lockdown because of Covid-19 and we've all worked from home ever since!

StarNamer@work13-Sep-23 6:11

StarNamer@work

13-Sep-23 6:11

By "emptied", do you mean deleted/filed or just read?

I rarely delete anything from my Outlook mailbox and's currently showing that, across all folders, I have 88,913 unread messages! 6 of those are in the InBox.

Gary Wheeler13-Sep-23 8:06

Gary Wheeler

13-Sep-23 8:06

I use my InBox as something of a "to-do" list. Messages will sit there for days, weeks, sometimes 2-3 months. Once something's completed, it get moved to a topic/product/project folder.

Software Zen: delete this;

obermd13-Sep-23 6:52

obermd

13-Sep-23 6:52

Are you retiring?

Gary Wheeler13-Sep-23 8:09

Gary Wheeler

13-Sep-23 8:09

My retirement age exceeds my life expectancy, so no.

Software Zen: delete this;

Daniel Pfeffer13-Sep-23 10:23

Daniel Pfeffer

13-Sep-23 10:23

Should we rename the Towers of Hanoi the Towers of e-Mail? Smile | :)

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.

Marc Clifton13-Sep-23 12:58

Marc Clifton

13-Sep-23 12:58

People at work are stunned when, for example in a screen sharing session, they notice how organized my inbox is. I currently have 4 items, 3 flagged as important. Everything else is organized into folders by customer and third-party vendors, often with sub-folders on particular tasks and email correspondences. While the main inbox is not often totally empty, the # of items usually doesn't exceed a dozen by the end of each day. Jig | [Dance]

Latest Articles:
A Lightweight Thread Safe In-Memory Keyed Generic Cache Collection Service
A Dynamic Where Implementation for Entity Framework

Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter13-Sep-23 19:12

Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter

13-Sep-23 19:12

Same here - but I never let others see it Big Grin | :-D

"If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker that came along would destroy civilization." ― Gerald Weinberg

jochance15-Sep-23 4:36

jochance

15-Sep-23 4:36

I joke that I cause rain by closing all my notepad++ tabs. It leaves a local vacuum and pulls in all the clouds.