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John, you and me both. AFAIK all I want them to do is put me in contact with the jobs I want, not the other way around. Examples include an 'easy commute' to the other side of London, around 3 hours each way, or salaries equating to what I was earning 20 years ago.
speramus in juniperus
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I understand your pain. Like you I have been working in the field for an extended time, 20+ years. I have on my resume that I do not want to relocate, but constantly get recruiters contacting me about opportunities "up north." At the beginning of my career I lived in one of those northern states whose name begins with "New", and have since escaped to the mountains of eastern Tennessee via Atlanta. I guess that since I worked up north at one time, recruiters think I would be eager to return to snow-blower country, places like Boston, Philly, NJ, or NYC. I found that no matter how much I would indicate I was not interested nothing seemed to deter recruiters from repeatedly wasting my time and theirs. I finally got smart and started speaking their language, $$$$. Now when contacted by a recruiter about a position in an area I am not interested in I simply state "To get me even remotely interested in going to so-and-so the rate will have to be something God-aweful, like $100,000/hr. Now if you have something closer to my area I can come down significantly." I just love the shocked silence that ensues. I have yet to have a recruiter contact me a second time.
Cheers,
Tim W.
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You're the God of exageration. I alread asked for $100/hr for the comute, but $100,000? that's just mean.
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I figure if a recruiter wants to attempt to convince me to go to a location I do not want to work, then the rate should capture my interest. Having worked in the northeast US before, it would take far more than $100/hr to want to deal with living in a big city. Besides, if I ever do find a sucker, I mean an opportunity that would pay like that, I could retire after a couple of weeks.
Cheers,
Tim W.
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The problem is that they can't pay me enough to work in a blue state, especially if it's above the snow line. To be honest, it's hard enough to stay in Texas.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: The problem is that they can't pay me enough to work in a blue state, especially if it's above the snow line.
I feel the same way. But if a company want me bad enough to pay $100,000/hr then I could manage "force" myself to work there, for a couple of weeks. Even in the heavily taxed Northeast, I would be taking a nice chunk of change home. I would be able pay off all the bills and still be able to take a few months/years off after working a few weeks.
Do I think a company will really pay me that kind of money? No. Never. But it does encourage the northern recruiters to remove me from their databases, which is what I want.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: To be honest, it's hard enough to stay in Texas.
It is the same here in northeast Tennessee. Most employers here do not want to pay much but then want you to work like a slave. Right now I am working as a consultant/contractor; The pay is okay and I get treated better than the employees. I have had to work away from home at times. I can make 2X what I make locally when I work away from home. I limit myself to areas within the Southeast when I do consider working out of the area. I tend to work near Atlanta a lot, mostly because (a) I have college friends there who are amenable to leasing me a couple of rooms in the basement at a decent rate and (b) I already have working relationships with the local recruiters.
Cheers,
Tim W.
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SirTreveyan wrote: To get me even remotely interested in going to so-and-so the rate will have to
be something God-aweful, like $100,000/hr
Perfectly reasonable but you should actually pick a rate which, presumably, isn't ridiculous and yet if they did agree to that then you would be happy accepting the job. You might also want some other requirements as well such as length of employment and early termination severance.
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jschell wrote:
Perfectly reasonable but you should actually pick a rate which, presumably, isn't ridiculous and yet if they did agree to that then you would be happy accepting the job. You might also want some other requirements as well such as length of employment and early termination severance.
You are totally missing the point.
I have clearly written in my resume I am only interested in specific areas of Southeastern US. If a recruiter would just read my resume they would know I am not interested in opportunities in say Philly or Dallas or San Francisco. In the past I have asked recruiters from these areas to remove me from their databases and subsequently I would still be contacted. I found giving a ridiculous rate achieves what a polite request fails to do.
Cheers,
Tim W.
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SirTreveyan wrote: You are totally missing the point.
No I understand your point.
My point is that everything is always a negotiation. For example the fact that you specifically state that you only want a job in your local area probably doesn't mean that you are willing to accept such a job for minimum wage. And although, just like you, I don't want to relocate I would in fact do it if they wanted to pay me enough. I also understand that it possible, although unlikely, that they would in fact pay me what I would consider worthwhile. But for that to be meaningful I at least need to have some idea what a real the actual rate that I would need where I would actually do it.
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jschell wrote: No I understand your point.
My point is that everything is always a negotiation.
You ARE missing the point. There is NO room for negotiation. I used to live in the Northeast and I know from experience that I would not be able to reproduce my lifestyle anywhere up there at a "reasonable rate". Currently I have a 30 minute commute to work and return every night to my home on a mountain ridge with sufficient land to more than adequately ensure my privacy. I do not have neighbors nor government agencies trying to tell me what I can and can not do. If I feel like target shooting or hunting on my property I can. If I want to start raising chickens or other live stock, I can; without having to jump through hoops imposed by others seeking to limit my pursuit of happiness. I simply do not want to live or work outside the Southeast. Period. End of story. In reality NO AMOUNT OF MONEY could entice me to work anywhere else.
jschell wrote: I also understand that it possible, although unlikely, that they would in fact pay me what I would consider worthwhile. But for that to be meaningful I at least need to have some idea what a real the actual rate that I would need where I would actually do it.
Why should I care about a reasonable rate when I have absolutely no interest in relocating. The sole purpose of that ridiculous rate is to get recruiters who are too lazy to read a resume to REMOVE me from their database so they do not continue to harass me.
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SirTreveyan wrote: In reality NO AMOUNT OF MONEY could entice me to work anywhere else.
Then that settles it. Myself I would be willing to work anywhere in the US for a guaranteed 40 hour/wk 2 year guaranteed contract at $500 an hour.
I don't expect to get a million dollars a year but I am certainly going to give them the chance to turn it down.
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jschell wrote: I would be willing to work anywhere in the US
That's you, and I am me. Everyone is different.
Each of us, have certain preferences, brought on by our life's experiences, possibly colored by our prejudices valid or not. I prefer to live where I do for various reasons, including my hobbies. It was difficult finding a property not encumbered by HOA or covenant bullshit so I could pursue mu hobbies as I choose. For example, as an amateur radio operator, I have spent years setting up a bunch of HF, VHF and UHF antenna systems. My current project is a phased array of 16 antennas for 440Mhz Moonbounce. I hesitate to even estimate how long it would take me to take down all the antennas, amplifiers, disassemble the towers and dig up all the buried cables let alone putting them all up again elsewhere. I would have difficulty just moving down the mountain because of this one issue alone. Having lived in the Northeast, land of liberals who believe everyone's pursuit of happiness must give way to their own, I know it could take years to find a property when I could pursue my amateur radio hobby the way I desire in any Blue State.
Again, it rude and obnoxious for a recruiter to call me about an opportunity outside my stated preference while implying they have read my resume which clearly states my location preference. I have had many recruiters continue contacting me even after I requested to be removed from their database. My solution to continued calls was to state a rate that I KNOW would not be considered. I feel it would be just as unprofessional to turn down an offer after I quote a high albeit possible rate. I found that stating a "ridiculous" rate the best way to handle the situation.
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SirTreveyan wrote: Each of us, have certain preferences...I would have difficulty just moving down the mountain...
What makes you think that you would be required to move or give up your current residence if you accepted a very lucrative contract at a remote location?
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You are rather dense aren't you.
Simply put I live where I do because it makes me HAPPY. I am able to DO WHAT I WANT without people ( like you ) telling me what I can and can not do. My neighbors are like minded people who believe everyone should be able to live without interference. Why should I work in an area that does not make me happy? Why should I consent to subject myself to people who believe it is OK to IMPOSE their beliefs upon me? Why should I have recruiters harassing me about opportunities in areas that I will not be happy living in even for short periods. I should not. For me, $500/hr is not sufficient to entice me to work elsewhere simply because I would not be HAPPY in another area. No amount of money is enough. If you can not understand that, oh well. From what I see, you are a small sorry human being who is not happy unless he/she are right all the time.
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SirTreveyan wrote: I am able to DO WHAT I WANT without people ( like you ) telling me what I can
and can not do
Perhaps you might be happier not posting on forums then?
SirTreveyan wrote: No amount of money is enough
Then you are not part of the norm. Despite off the cuff remarks for many people money is in fact a significant factor in their lives. If they do not have enough it is a significant factor. And there is seldom a time when there is too much of it.
SirTreveyan wrote: From what I see, you are a small sorry human being who is not happy unless
he/she are right all the time.
But presumably you will be happy to learn that your assessment of my emotional state is wrong.
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I hear ya; I feel your pain. I was looking 1/2 year ago. Here's what I've learned/trained myself to do: If English (my native language) is their native language, hear them out. Hone that list down to 4 or 5. If English is not their native language, hang up/delete. I wasted a ton of time on the non-English speakers this last time and the time 5 years ago - from those experiences I learned that they are a waste of time. I've had very good luck with the honed list.
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I just went through a learning experience with a recruiter who I could not understand. He bungled the whole thing (including setting up an interview with the employer but not with me) to the point that I wrote him an email saying I was no longer interested. He sent me an email saying "thanks for the response, how about this other opportunity". I told him to never send me another email or call me ever again. I've not heard from him since (yet).
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50 miles? Seems like a lot to me.
I get calls occasionally from people with positions which would be a 'great fit' in the Denver Tech Center (about 30 miles one-way). Instead of rejecting them outright, I always make sure to check if they're willing to send a car each day so I could work during the commute.
Haven't really gotten a bite on that yet.
I agree with the not willing to reloacte bit. I keep hearing of these great opportunities in Tulsa or some other BFE town. I'm sure they have their appeal, but when I say "Not willing to relocate", that should pretty much seal it.
Finally, I got a phone call the other week from a number I didn't know, so ignored. Within seconds I got an email from some recruiter telling me:
* How he understands that I probably get bombarded with communications all the time from recruiters and doesn't want this to be like that and
* How he could use his expertise in the Denver market to get me what I want.
His area code was from Maryland. But I'm sure he knows all about the market here...
Sigh.
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You are not the customer of the recruiter. The recruiter's job is not to find you a job. The recruiter's job is to fill a position for their client. You are a commodity.
You might as well tell Red Lobster that they need to completely change the way they do business to better suit the needs of the lobsters.
Recruiters are often competing against several other recruiting companies and sometimes even other recruiters within their own company. Whoever gets to you first gets the right to represent you to the client. So if they sat and read through your whole resume, the person who just calls you based on the fuzzy match gets to you first and shuts them out.
The more money a company spends on an all American recruiting firm, the less they have in their IT budget. Who would you rather get the money, the IT guys who you think are skilled, or the recruiters whose skills you find so lacking?
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: "senior recruiters"
Are there any "Senior Recruiters"? I have yet to speak to any recruiter that after enough time did not conspiratorially admit they were thinking of starting their own agency and would I go with them?
Psychosis at 10
Film at 11
Those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.
Those who do not remember the past, cannot build upon it.
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I have, on the first several lines of my résumé the most common questions asked by recruiters answered. So when they call and ask me the question I just say, "Have you read my résumé?" they say, "Yes I have but I need to know X", oh "I am terribly sorry, can you open my résumé please and read me what the fourth line says" I really just do it to play games, if someone doesn't look at your résumé before tehy called then the opportunity doesn't really exist and you are just a fish for a recruiter looking for max margin for minimum effort.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: I DO NOT WANT TO WORK IN BUM-F*CK EGYPT, NORTH CAROLINA, OR ANY STATE THAT STARTS WITH THE WORD "NEW". In point of fact, if it ain't within 50 miles of my zip code, I don't want to know about it.
This is what's killing you. You're in a highly competitive area at a time when good positions are not easy to find. Houston/Dallas would be great if you were willing to move there, and you could sure as hell find a good job in Boise or Memphis, but you're going to have a hard time finding the job you want without leaving San Antonio.
And yes, headhunters are worthless. Since you're looking for jobs in a small area, your best bet is probably to network and get to know people, that's still the best way to get a good job.
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Although I agree with much of what you say, and believe (but cannot prove) that I am the victim of age discrimination (recruiters show interest at first, but thereafter won't even return my followup emails, at times, after they've realized, I think, that I'm no spring chicken), I don't understand why you'd hang up on somebody for not being an "American," whatever that is (I have three strains of Native American in my heritage, and could make a snide remark about who is really a true American).
As for your aversion to states beginning with "New" I get the New Jersey and New York revulsion, but Hampshire and Mexico are nice places. Then again, you don't want to relocate - neither do I, I get that same thing: recruiters contacting me for jobs all over the place, when I have indicated I'm not interested.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: For the record, Houston and Dallas are NOWHERE NEAR San Antonio. Neither
location qualifies as a "longish commute"
What's a 4 hours drive? 
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I have experienced most of the idiocies you describe, and more (although I'm a bit less upset by requests to recommend other candidates when the message offers a USD$500 "commission").
Let's add a couple more:
I have retired(I still take small projects), so I have removed my resume from all the job sites. I still get E-mails stating the recruiter found my resume on Monster, or Career Builder, or ... In other words, yet another form letter.
Why did I retire? I just got too tired of the idiocy of the recruiting process.
The IT recruiting industry seems to have implemented a common "unsubscribe" mechanism (through something called "jobseekers"). However, the unsubscribe applies to the recruiter, not the company. WTF?
Finally, like you, I've got quite a few years of experience (try forty-four). In the U.S., it's illegal to discriminate on the basis of age. So I became accustomed to being rejected for "not being energetic enough." How energetic do you need to be to sit in a cubicle and type on a keyboard? Given that experienced programmers are more productive, and make far fewer bad design decisions, they are a better choice, even economically. And, of course, if you (the employer) need to save money (in a short-term calculation that amounts to cutting your throat to satisfy your shareholders while losing (see, I spelled that right ;<) your customers), you can always lay me off, or out-source my job to China (where an entire team of programmers were unable to even understand the code I provided). Sigh.
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