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Christopher Duncan wrote: I'll just back slowly to the exit now... 
Wise choice, Christopher, and good advice, as always. As you say, recruiters can be made into allies if you handle them properly. It's in their best interest to land you a better job - actually, they don't give a damn if it's better, so long as you think it is - and the more of them you have working for you, the better the results are likely to be. Although they get paid by the hiring company, generally, it's perfectly okay and very useful to treat them as your own personal representatives. None of them work for just one client, so they're really kind of a supermarket of job opportunities. It pays to learn how to effectively cultivate and manage them.
Will Rogers never met me.
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Collect the whole set! 
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Firstly, these people are in business to make money by filling the positions their contacts give them.
They aren't a charity, they aren't Father Christmas.
Having said which, ROR is a hot technology with a shortage of decent candidates. I wrote one commercial stock Ruby programme six years ago, and I get ROR calls because they are desperate.
Fact is, you need a job. You don't have a right to one, you don't have an entitlement. You have to take control of how you are marketing yourself.
As for the agencies, you have to show willing; one agency in 2006 in Leicester, 100 miles from where I lived, sent me on a couple of no-hope interviews.
They needed a candidate to show, any candidate, to keep the reputation of their agency for finding quality people, even though they might not be right.
In return for this, three agents at the agency adopted me. They were on my side because I was on theirs.
By the end, I was being flown out to interviews in Belfast and Amsterdam, expenses paid.
In the end I took a job with a world leading imaging company on the South Coast, living in a popular holiday resort with more pubs per capita than any town in England, warm climate, white sand beach and lots of social activities.(Team building was usually accompanied by the boss buying us lots of beer).
All because we invested in each other and had good agency relations.
Chin up!
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Maybe you should request to be hired by Monster so you can increase the font size of the no-relocation information.
Or a nice <marquee>. Those are so coming back.
I wonder about
Marc Clifton wrote: First off, as a contractor, it's my understanding that it is illegal to require on-site work unless it can be demonstrated that the work can only be done on-site.
and if there's a UK equivalent law. I'm assuming you're in the US from the thread.
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IANAL. It's not against the law for the company to require you to be on-site, but HMRC can say you're a hidden employee and make _you_ pay the full whack of PAYE tax on your earnings, plus any penalties.
That said, unless you're taking the piss, they generally don't hunt people down under IR35 anymore. Just pay yourself a living wage under PAYE and they'll be happy.
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SortaCore wrote: I'm assuming you're in the US from the thread.
Quite. Near Albany, NY here.[^]
SortaCore wrote: Maybe you should request to be hired by Monster so you can increase the font size of the no-relocation information.
I am half-seriously considering working this from the other direction and figuring out how a real job searching website would actually work, for both employers and people looking for employment.
Marc
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Marc Clifton wrote: figuring out how a real job searching website would actually work
Funny, as I was reading through this whole thread, the thing I kept thinking was "this sounds like a problem that needs to be solved".
Here's been my experience with Monster and all of them. My first job in college (fall 1999) was as a bus boy at a local Outback that I got by just going in and applying. Since then, I believe I've worked for 9 different employers, and every single one of them was through personal and/or professional contacts, including my first full-time gig out of college (CEO ate at the restaurant I was working at) and every one since. I've done the Monster thing and never once got a real offer/look/etc.
The simple fact is that employers want to hire people where someone in the org already knows the applicant. There's a lot less risk if someone you know is vouching for somebody. That is the problem that needs solving, and I think something like LinkedIn could do that, but it's just too douchey. As I heard on some TV show once, it just reeks of guys that wear their cellphones clipped to their belt.
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IndifferentDisdain wrote: That is the problem that needs solving, and I think something like LinkedIn could do that, but it's just too douchey.
Agreed. And certainly, all my contracts over the last 20 years have been through word of mouth, personal encounter (one was at a potluck dinner for a Quaker Intentional Community) or people calling because of my articles here on Code Project (2 clients).
Marc
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I gave up last week, took early retirement, and waved goodbye with one finger.
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1. + "I'm disgusted with this dehumanizing industry." == irony. Employers want you on site because being there in person allows the team to get to know you. You've been doing this 33 years and haven't figured that out? *You* are the one who doesn't want to be around other people while you work. Who's dehumanizing the industry here?
2. That's a little racist; though I find my self not returning calls to recruiters that I can't understand. The US is the melting pot, people have accents. You should get over it. :P
3. Because the people with Ruby on Rails experience are rarer than those with .NET experience... simple supply and demand here...
4. I make 45k as a Lead Android developer so I don't really want to hear your complaints on 75k/90k. That number also means different things in different parts of the country. EX. 75k in sanfrancisco would be practically unlivable. Here in North Carolina, it would be a decent salary.
Last. Don't use Monster if you want an IT job. Use Dice. (Or craigslist if you want a startup but from the looks of things, you probably couldn't handle a startup salary.)
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Stephen Dycus wrote: Employers want you on site because being there in person allows the team to get to know you. You've been doing this 33 years and haven't figured that out? *You* are the one who doesn't want to be around other people while you work. Who's dehumanizing the industry here?
Of course. And the irony is that I get put into a cubicle with three other people, each from a different nationality, we never talked, English wasn't a particular strong suit for them. The concept of "getting to know the team" is a crock of sh*t in the majority of cases because the company does nothing to foster this.
Stephen Dycus wrote: That's a little racist;
No, it's a stereotype, and it's unfortunate that these people can be "typed" so easily in this way. If you want to call it racist, then I'm OK with that too, quite frankly. This watered-down politically correct BS we have to live with today simply means that people can't say what they really think, which means we don't actually resolve conflicts, instead we just internalize them.
Stephen Dycus wrote: Here in North Carolina, it would be a decent salary.
Absolutely, and I do take that into account.
Stephen Dycus wrote: Don't use Monster if you want an IT job. Use Dice.
Will do, thanks for the advice. I'm also looking at The Ladders.
Marc
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Marc Clifton wrote: Of course. And the irony is that I get put into a cubicle with three other people, each from a different nationality, we never talked, English wasn't a particular strong suit for them. The concept of "getting to know the team" is a crock of sh*t in the majority of cases because the company does nothing to foster this.
Wow, what kind of crap jobs are you working lol? I guess you mostly work in corporate settings, yuck. If you could take a hit to the salary, I'd recommend a startup. Lots of freedom, everyone's close on the team, and (depending on your startup) they don't care if you work from home 3 out of 5 days a week.
Marc Clifton wrote: This watered-down politically correct BS we have to live with today simply means that people can't say what they really think
I said "get over it" not because being racist is "wrong," it's just pointless and unhealthy. You're stressing yourself out because these people calling you have an accent... There's no *benefit* to being a little racist, so try not to let it get to you.
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Stephen Dycus wrote: Wow, what kind of crap jobs are you working lol?
Citigroup on Wall Street.
Stephen Dycus wrote: it's just pointless and unhealthy.
I agree, but quite frankly, it also disgusts me that this is yet another example of money leaving America, and Americans being too lazy to do the grunt work that these foreign recruiting agencies do. So my gripe is larger than just taking pot shots at people with different accents.
Marc
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I've been reading this thread.... Here is what I did:
I was looking to get a job where I could work remotely too. I live near Cleveland, the MECCA of programming and like work - NOT! I ended up getting a job that required me to commute for an hour each way, which is a long commute for this area. I have a unique background that my company needed, which was .NET on Windows CE (of course, we all know that isn't a big deal).
Anyway, I worked on site for about a year, proved that I was willing to do what it took to get the job done. When my review came up, I knew they weren't able to give me a raise, so I asked to work remotely and come in when needed.
Fast forward 4 years later, and I now work remotely 95%+ of the time, and go to Florida many times a year and work from there too (actually leaving later today)!
And by the way, we have moved on, and morphed the Windows CE project into an ASP.NET app.
It can be done, you just need to find the right fit.
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David Knechtges wrote:
It can be done, you just need to find the right fit.
Definitely. The majority of my work over the last 20 years has actually been remote work, anywhere from 20 miles to 3000. For more "local" remote work, I do thoroughly enjoy spending time with the client, as much as they need, and for the long distance work, I would arrange travel when we all agreed a visit would be worthwhile - those were intense days!
And I completely agree, that establishing a relationship is key, and I'm quite willing to make that effort as long as it's reasonable, an hour or so of commute is fine.
It is definitely wonderful when there is a good relationship and people are flexible and also realize that there are other ways to create value than just money.
Thank you for the feedback,
Marc
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I got a call from a recruiter a few months back looking for someone for a MonoTouch (Xamarin.iOS) project. He saw that my company is listed on Xamarin's website.
He was looking for someone to work in Montréal, about 8 hours away. I told him that I wasn't interested in working personally, but he could contract me through my company for a project, and I couldn't offer 40h/wk, but could probably do 20.
A couple of weeks later he called up and said the client was OK with it. I've done about $35,000 for them since with no hassles.
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The pendulum doth swings. Ruby on Rails, extensive .Net experience? I may have missed the autocoder or big iron assembler experience. Current advantage is to the employer. It used to change before globalization. I've been thru several swings of the pendulum. Was a time when employees could walk across the street for 25% more pay. Some Oracle hotshots met potential emplorers in Hotel conference room and let them bid against each other. Employees certainly press the advantage when they have it. Casual dress is a by-product of that from long ago. Used to be mostly sduits at large companies, then Hawaiian shirt day Fridays, then simply jeans on Fridays, to now everyday, UNLESS you meet with clients.
Regarding contractors working at home - Independent contractors can. That is a tough test they must pass muster too - they must be classified by IRS as independent contractors - they own the master contract, there would be no 3rd party. They are not sub contractors or anything else. The old "if you walk like a duck, talk like a duck" test. And that means you are actively working multiple contracts.
Maybe it will swing back, but I doubt it. It is such an odd thing that they require folks to work in the office (probably a result of the same 10% bad employees that wreck everything for others, or CEOs thinking they aren't "hip" because Google changed their @home policies so they need to change theirs), yet allow off-shore workers on same projects.
Botton line is if someone can demonstrate they can do your job for $5/hour (US) then your job is worth $5/hour.
I would think in a contry run by a tyrant who ran on a platform that many energy sources will be taxed out of existance and energy costs overall will hurt everyone and skyrocket that companies would get a clue and shift more to @home work saving money wasted on 2 hour commute each way, thus being able to short the raises as people don't need the extra $$$ wasted in traffic, that they have 3-4 hours more to, hopefully, split between work and home.
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Member 10417115 wrote: I may have missed the autocoder or big iron assembler experience.
Yup, done that too. 
Member 10417115 wrote: they own the master contract, there would be no 3rd party. They are not sub contractors or anything else. The old "if you walk like a duck, talk like a duck" test. And that means you are actively working multiple contracts.
That's certainly been the case for the last 20 years. Certainly my accountant hasn't squawked.
Member 10417115 wrote: Botton line is if someone can demonstrate they can do your job for $5/hour (US) then your job is worth $5/hour.
Aye, and there's the rub. How do separate the job from the person? Certainly, the my job my be worth $5/hr because someone is willing to take that as compensation, but that doesn't mean that I'm worth only $5/hr. And this I think is where the difficulty lies - it is nearly impossible to measure the value that a person brings to a job, and in some jobs, what's at least equally of valuable is the person. If we value work based entirely on a monetized market demand of the work itself, then I think we, as a species, have lost. Period. And certainly, the best jobs I've had are the ones where the person is valued, not just the labor they perform.
Member 10417115 wrote: that companies would get a clue and shift more to @home work saving money wasted on 2 hour commute each way,
Preach it, bro!
Marc
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The thing that pisses me off the most though is that these companies all want "on-site" contractors/employees. First off, as a contractor, it's my understanding that it is illegal to require on-site work unless it can be demonstrated that the work can only be done on-site.
Ah, you are an independent. Then, as you already know very well, "legally" they cannot require you to work onsite, unless you waived that in the fine, or more likely normal sized print. This makes my point about how far the pendulum as swung. Many many years ago I was on contract to a big company, and I didn't want to be extended again. They gave my company an addendum to my contract that basically said I would stay their until, and if, they ever tired of me. I told my management this was completely unenforcable and they agreed, but that if I didn't sign that paper right then and their that I'd be off that contract right then and there and that ALL the folks we had contractging there would be gone too, probably never to return. But I'd have the satisfaction of being right.
Learned a very valuable lession that day.
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dsmrtn wrote: I would stay their until, and if, they ever tired of me.
Wow. I thought slavery was abolished. 
Marc
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I preferred to think I was well liked...smile...
Slavery was never abolished. It was maybe shelved, then dusted off, updated and expanded to include, well, most everyone. Liberalism at its' finiest - control of everyone and everything from cradle to grave.
I'm torn. I'm mostly a .Net guy these days. I love the new IDEs, the debugging, objects and such, the whole immediate gratification you can have now days. But I miss a lot about the old days - desk checking because your program deck only got read into card reader once a day during the day, and as often as you could squeeze in on Production shift off hours if the operators like you. And I do miss IBM 360 style assembler. Anyone can hack at Cobol or VB3 and program - homemakers could - whatever gender they might be. But getting your program to work in assembler - I always felt more accomplished. Oh, and shooting dumps.
Given the technology curve, wonder what the technolgy will be like. This is still kind of on point, but I've heard many jobs will be replaced by robots to include vehicles that drive themselves for delivery, snow plowing, manufacturing at every level, etc. That the computer will be as fast as our brain in 10 years or so, so I'm guessing they will be able to develop a scripting language that turns requirements into decent code and then stop offshoring our jobs, they can just depreciate most of us, everywhere.
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It gets more funny when several different agencies call you for the same job, this happens here very often...
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Marc, I feel for you I really do, in fact it's not just over in the States but here in the UK it's just as bad too.
These days I generally only try to deal with recruiters that I know and trust, I'm working on a project at the moment, which is all based on PHP and for the most part I'm getting asked to do css and design changes on the company website rather than any serious coding.
Prior to this project, I applied for several .NET related contracts in the area, and guess what? I got told that I didn't have the "Depth of experience" they where looking for, despite the fact that I've been using .NET right since the early alphas (Pre v1 run-time)
All I see time and time again is companies that want fresh out of college hip you developers (SO they can mold them to their own image of what they think a dev should be) but they want them with all the skills and experience of a guy like you and I (30+ years experience)
The "Get out of software development" quote is ironic, because I myself these days earn more income as a Pluralsite Author and Succinctly E-book author than I do from any software projects.
This industry is in a complete shambles, and maybe sometime I'll fully document my thoughts here on CP, but for now unless your willing to just become a "yes sir" "no sir" programmer that writes what your told when your told how your told, then there's no future for the like of you and I unless you branch out elsewhere.
I for example am seriously considering going into the education market full-time either as a lecturer for hire or as a corporate trainer, because like you I've had enough of the sh*t.
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Peter Shaw wrote: because I myself these days earn more income as a Pluralsite Author and Succinctly E-book author than I do from any software projects.
Heh, I have one Succinctly book out with SyncFusion and I really need to be working on the second one!
I'll have to check out Pluralsite.
Peter Shaw wrote: for example am seriously considering going into the education market full-time either as a lecturer for hire or as a corporate trainer
For me, Life Coaching and Psychology are of interest. We should check in with each other and see how it goes!
Marc
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Absolutely
oh and iv'e read your book, very informative.
Feel free to hunt me down on twitter im @shawty_ds or just look for 'Lidnug' on Linked-in im not difficult to find
Hunt me down and we can hook up via email or something ....
PS: my two books are the GIS and Postgres ones, and I'm waiting on them publishing my Bootstrap V2 one too.
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