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I'm not an immigrant. My family has been here since the 1600s, and I was born here - I think that qualifies me as a natural-born American. And if you want to take it to such an absurd level, we're all immigrants from Africa (according to the latest favorite scientific genetic theory).
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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I never said anything about immigration. I would consider anyone with a US citizenship an American.
All I am saying is that at work, people are either productive or non-productive. There is no other type-casting.
I understand that your family is there since 1600, but most of the Hispanics, Blacks and Chinese can say the same, that they are there since last 200 years. USA is a country filled with most no. of immigrants in the world (if you consider last 200 years then 50% of people are immigrants), and this is not new. So after spending more than 40 years there, I don't understand why are you depressed? You already know everything in this damn paragraphs. This will NEVER change.
I have spent almost four years in the USA. I have seen immigrants (including Indians) behaving like 'Non-Americans', and sometimes it's annoying. But you can't hate them just because they are not behaving/acting like Americans. Remember they are from a different country.
It's always strange to me, whenever I see an American on the internet who can't stand immigrants. Because I have never came across a single person/incident where someone in the USA doesn't like me because I am an Indian.
I have done many business travels and family vacations with Americans, I have traveled the country like crazy in those four years and I am still talking to my old colleagues on the Skype. I don't think that I just got lucky or I was that dumb, after spending that much time on those many different places.
So back to my original point - Why do you care? It's not 1800 anymore...
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: 'm not an immigrant.
Yes you are.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: My family has been here since the 1600s,
Then you immigrated in the 1600's.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: I was born here - I think that qualifies me as a natural-born American
A nation of immigrants!
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: we're all immigrants from Africa
That makes you an African American! Watup! 
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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You actually counted All !!! 
Change is a pattern of life.
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It would definitely come in handy so that John can communicate with of his work mates.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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Naah!
The most common languages would be Telugu and Tamil, not Hindi.
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Vivic wrote: Naah!
The most common languages would be Telugu and Tamil, not Hindi.
Sorry, I don't know about Indian languages. I was just thinking about the situation here in Issan (Northeast Thailand) although most villagers speak either Khmer or Lao the children learn Thai in school.
Similarly in China although there are many regional dialects every school student learns Mandarin.
Excuse me for my ignorance of India but I thought Hindi is the language taught in school in India. 
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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That might be appropriate if I had the slightest desire to communicate with them. They're in my country - they should learn English or go the f*ck home.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: hat might be appropriate if I had the slightest desire to communicate with them.
Obviously you do not want to communicate with the people you work with.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: They're in my country - they should learn English or go the f*ck home.
In my experience Indian and Pakistanis speak proper English.
They were former British colonies after all.
Maybe it is you that doesn't have a good command of the English language. 
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Walking around the office this morning, I counted name plates - five Americans and 26 Indian/Pakistani.
As a thought maybe the Americans should spend some more time doing the job rather than counting?
Just a thought.
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jschell wrote: John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Walking around the office this all morning, I counted name plates - five Americans European immigrants and 26 Indian/Pakistani.
As a thought maybe the Americans should spend some more time doing the job rather than counting?
Now you know what he does all day. 
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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Well, in my office there are 3 Chinese, 1 from UAE, 1 from Brazil, 1 from Pakistan, 5 Persians and 1 American. I am the lone American and am definitely out numbered.
CQ de W5ALT
Walt Fair, Jr., P. E.
Comport Computing
Specializing in Technical Engineering Software
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I know how you feel, from the other side. My team, 3 or possibly 4 locals, 6 Indian, 1 from Burma, 2 from the Philippines and me!
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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So what's the depressing part?
- That you're prepared to work for a small sum of money
- That your fellow country-men are less hard-working than others
- Or that your performance is scrutinized more than it may have been in the past.
As a 4th/5th generation Aussie, I can assure you that in a previous job at a local university, the hardest workers were all in from families that had been here for less time than mine, the majority coming from India or Sri-Lanka. They were the least likely to goof-off if they had 'spare' time when there was a process that could be improved, and the most likely to be what I considered bright.
They were incidentally, the most friendly and family-oriented people too. Sure, my sample-size was tiny - there were only 300 of us that I had regular/semi-regular contact with. But I'd work with 'imports' every day of the week if I could, much sooner than 'locals'.
Complacency is the enemy of the successful. 
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Well said. I really appreciate your points. One thing to understand here is, if there are so called skilled developers who are so extensive in US why would they wish to sponsor visa and get developers from other countries
Thanks,
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Unfortunately, I have a feeling that this person does not have the ability to understand what you're trying to say here.
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
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enhzflep wrote: So what's the depressing part?
A level of insecurity can't be expressed by words.
enhzflep wrote: - That your fellow country-men are less hard-working than others
May be this is the most likely reason. He got out numbered by other hardworking people around the Globe and its depressing not to have colleague from your own country. May be a kind of insecurity where you think other people are snatching jobs from your own countryman.
enhzflep wrote: That you're prepared to work for a small sum of money
This is another most obvious reason to get depressed. As you might have always feeling that you will be replaced by those people who are ready to work for the same price without looking for handsome pay rise.
You can have all the tools in the world but if you don't genuinely believe in yourself, it's useless.
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So, this is what you do when you should be rather working, and YOU are depressed about it?
Why don't you take your little gun and do a round of shooting in your office like you retards always do? Hopefully you'll find no 'foreigners' in the jail.
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
modified 3-Mar-14 3:07am.
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Rajesh R Subramanian wrote: So, this is what you do when you should be rather working, and YOU are depressed about it?
I work 10 hours per day MINIMUM. I get to work before the sun comes up, and sometimes don't leave until the sun goes down (10-14-hour days, mostly because there's only two of us supporting more than 2 million lines of code). And then I work at home on the weekends. Please don't assume you know my work habits, or presume to suggest what I should be doing once I get to work.
My observations regarding the ratio of American to 3rd-world workers are merely a statement on the sad state of affairs in MY country regarding programmer jobs. American programmers aren't being replaced with off shore people because the American's suck at their jobs - it's because off-shore doesn't cost NEARLY as much. I'm sure if they could find someone that would work for less than you guys, they'd use them instead of you, and then you'd be complaining just as loudly.
Rajesh R Subramanian wrote: Why don't you take your little gun and do a round of shooting in your office like you retards always do? Hopefully you'll find no 'foreigners' in the jail.
"You retards always do"? There are over 30 million American gun owners, and of that number, a statistically insignificant fraction of a fraction of them have shot up their work place. I count myself as part of the much larger generally non-insane group.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: I work 10 hours per day MINIMUM. I get to work before the sun comes up, and sometimes don't leave until the sun goes down (10-14-hour days, mostly because there's only two of us supporting more than 2 million lines of code). And then I work at home on the weekends.
MINIMUM 10 hours a day? And you work on the weekends? Unless you're paid for that extra stuff, I think you are being ripped off by your employer, but that's just my opinion.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Please don't assume you know my work habits, or presume to suggest what I should be doing once I get to work.
Fair enough, but I was only suggesting that counting the name plates isn't productive in any way to your employer. Feel free to prove me wrong though.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: My observations regarding the ratio of American to 3rd-world workers are merely a statement on the sad state of affairs in MY country regarding programmer jobs. American programmers aren't being replaced with off shore people because the American's suck at their jobs - it's because off-shore doesn't cost NEARLY as much. I'm sure if they could find someone that would work for less than you guys, they'd use them instead of you, and then you'd be complaining just as loudly.
I have a feeling that you are using the word "American" rather loosely. An American is a person who is a citizen of the USA. And that could either come by way of birth in the USA, or by having been granted by the government of the USA. And I see no difference between the two, except for that one person was born there, and another wasn't (which I think makes them an 'immigrant' for you).
However, if immigrants are not Americans, then only the native tribals who were the earliest known settlers are true Americans (you are an immigrant in this case). Sure, your family immigrated earlier than the others who are doing now, but you're still an outsider and you should go back and do your nameplate counting again. Perhaps there are no real "Americans" working in your office, then.
You're again loosely using the term 'off-shore'. Off-shoring is when your company establishes themselves in a country other than their own, and employ people there. In that case, those people are still very much employees of your company, and are not any different from you except for that they're living and working in a different country.
However, if someone is living and working there in the US, they've every right as you do. They're as much "American" as you are. Except for may be they are often poorer, and are struggling desperately to make ends meet and have moved far from most their loved ones in the process.
I'm sure there are other kinds of slothful ones who move to another country in order to take advantage of the system there, but those are not the kind of people I am talking about. You'll find some "locals" are like that too, but then again, that's not the kind I talked about.
"Real men drive manual transmission" - Rajesh.
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Rajesh R Subramanian wrote: MINIMUM 10 hours a day? And you work on the weekends? Unless you're paid for that extra stuff, I think you are being ripped off by your employer, but that's just my opinion.
That's the nature of "exempt" worker status. They pay you an annual salary - period - no matter how many hours you work. There is no overtime, and if you're particularly unlucky, there's no comp time either. We have people here that haven't seen a pay-raise of any kind in over three years. All of this goes hand-in-hand with the lower costs of using offshore programmers.
Rajesh R Subramanian wrote: Fair enough, but I was only suggesting that counting the name plates isn't productive in any way to your employer. Feel free to prove me wrong though.
It took less than two minutes, and I did it at 6:50am on my way back from getting my first cup of coffee. Given my typical extended work week, I'm positive that the time wasn't noticed by the bean counters. After all, nobody else was in the office.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
-----
You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
-----
When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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When we were made redundant in 2009 to you-know-where we replaced our name plates with the date we were leaving. Before that, the HR folks were often seen walking around. Once they saw the names were replaced with dates we never saw them again. The firm also used to have these stick-your-finger-down-your-throat motivation prints on the wall, like the one showing a rowing eight with the cheesy caption "If we all pull together we can win the race." They took those down; mission accomplished?
If there is one thing more dangerous than getting between a bear and her cubs it's getting between my wife and her chocolate.
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Walking around the office this morning, I counted name plates...
Depressing indeed; took a stroll around my office and found zero American names on the desk plates...
Tried to match any of the ones on this list [^] 
-- RP
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Well i can understand your depression. Here in india in my team of 10 there are 6 American and good for nothing...they just sit around and bitch about climate,road and other stuff as if we called them here. And in production side i had to always review their work and it's always a mess.Even i feel depress working with American but it's can't help it's company policy
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