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A friend of mine has started his journey to become a programmer. His class is learning Python, and I mus wonder, Why Python?
I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead, (for when he's finished with his current course), but he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable. I am a big fan of C# and PHP, and I see little in Python that makes them comparable, (granted I haven't used much time with Python), But I can't see it even begin to compete with the big ones, (The C-like languages). But am I wrong?
The real question is really: are there really any big differences between the top 15 or 20 most popular programming languages?
-frank
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Python is really well structured, especially for a beginner. It's forgiving, multi platform and pretty powerful. I know of a major bank that uses python to do their risk analytics, after doing rather a lot of technology performance comparisons.
PHP is a godawful mess, and C# is tightly platform specific.
It's a really nice language. Sure, people whine about the whitespace/tab thing. But once you get over it (it takes about 2 hours), it yields a much cleaner block of code.
Frankly I'd be using it now if my code base wasn't already in perl.
I'd say give it a shot. It'll almost certainly surprise you.
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mikepwilson wrote: C# is tightly platform specific.
Really?[^] 
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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yeah I'm not sure I'd trust mono in a production environment.
"Maybe it's fine"
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Why not? 
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Honestly Mono is probably better tested and more reliable than Microsoft's implementation.
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I read a comment from someone who works at a company that has C# running on Mono that runs on Fortune 500 comapny servers without issue.
.-.
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|-|-| ||LI o ||
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/_/ \_\ /__| |__\
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Sorry - I would never trust mono.
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mikepwilson wrote: Frankly I'd be using it now [Python] if my code base wasn't already in perl.
That explains a lot. 
Before you go off on me I have coded in perl because I am a code whore and will code in any language you are willing to pay me to code in, but it is not my first choice of language.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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My real first language of choice is C++. But for just about everything I do (multi-platform ETL and light servers) a true scripting language is absolutely the right choice. There's so little excuse to use C++ nowadays. Makes me sad.
So that pretty much means perl or python. Given that I had 15 years of perl under my belt and 2 years of python, that decided that.
I won't involve myself in microsoft's toolchain unless I'm writing a gui.
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mikepwilson wrote: There's so little excuse to use C++ nowadays
Actually, when teaching of of the C??'s, I think C++ is a better choice than C#.
Granted, C# will be easier to learn. But, at least if you're a professional, you should know what you're really doing.
Eg.
This.that.somewherelse;
class.value;
vs
This::that::somewherelse; class.value;
class->value;
Also methods various other similar things. You're not distinguishing a name space from the various other separation options. Fewer mistakes but less understanding in what the meaning is of what you're doing. When the pedal hits the metal.
An opinion.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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mikepwilson wrote: PHP is a godawful mess, and C# is tightly platform specific.
Yes, PHP is a mess, but I like it, (I had to learn it, and I found it fantastic after a while), though nowadays I believe a "from scratch" re-writing of PHP in it's entirety might be in order.
C# is no longer Windows exclusive, due to Mono, and if I understand the news coming from Microsoft, C# will get a "native" compiler, making it much more flexible.
I have had a look at it, just to help my friend with some of the concepts, but I don't see the attraction. I feel this joke I heard:
Two programmers are standing at a bar talking shop, when a teen swagers over, and join the conversation. He asks the two older programmers what languages they are using. One of the guys answers: "I do OS development, mostly in C++". The other Guy answers: "I mostly do enterprise applications development in C#", The kid then says: "Coool, I myself program in Py...". In the Police report, the kid fell 14 times against the two programmers' fists.
-Sums up my attitude towards Python.
But hey, arguing over programming languages, (and IDE's, text editors, code formatting, etc,), is sometimes like arguing politics :P
-Frank
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No, CSharp is not platform specific. And CSharp is free, not like Java that is Oracle's property. CSharp is like JavaScript, it's standard by ECMA. Why people think that only because it was created by Microsoft, it is platform specific. This is stupidity. Haskell was created inside Microsoft too.
I Also suggest you to learn it.
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See, this is why I'm so very glad I asked everyone what languages they think I should learn.
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Frank Reidar Haugen wrote: WhyPython
Because his teacher knows it and probably nothing else. 
Frank Reidar Haugen wrote: I want him to have a look at C-like languages in-stead,
Good advice because, as you said, there are a lot of C varients around.
Frank Reidar Haugen wrote: he is adamant that his teacher must be correct in saying that Python is what the programmers need today, to be hireable.
Tell him to go to job sites and compare the number of Python jobs to the number of C, C++, C#, PHP, etc.,jobs available. 
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
I'm on-line therefore I am.
JimmyRopes
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JimmyRopes wrote: Because his teacher knows it and probably nothing else.
Great responses. Definitely true.
JimmyRopes wrote: Tell him to go to job sites and compare the number of Python jobs to the number of C, C++, C#, PHP, etc.,jobs available.
Right on!!!
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Relevant XKCD[^]
My guess is either the teacher is using it due to the simplicity and/or readability angle. Either that or the teacher has notes in Python and doesn't want to update (more common than you'd think).
I often think whether there is space for a programming language specifically for teaching, where you can start with simple procedural code, and switch flags on/off (like Option Explicit in VB I suppose) to access more advanced syntax. It'd be interesting if this is possible: Duck Typing vs static would be an effort, would (and could) you want to switch between paradigms (FP/OO etc).
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Keith Barrow wrote: I often think whether there is space for a programming language specifically for teaching,
Problem with that is that no-one will want to learn it - as it has no commercial use. And if it gets picked up as a commercial language, everyone will just belittle it in the same way they do VB (and probably for the same reasons)
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Yep, though, curiously, I think this is exactly how BASIC started out. TBH the idea is more of an intellectual exercise rather than anything I'd ever get round to starting, a bit like an extended esolang.
As for belittling,yes they would, but meh. Pretty much anyone who belittles any language (me included I've had the more than odd pop at VB) has achieved less than anyone who has actually designed one. Much easier to snipe from the sidelines than to actually do.
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Pretty much - BASIC started as a language for non-programmers (and a quick look at QA could persuade you it still is)
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Odd that, at my old school (where I studied EE, not CS) they taught ML, not because it was popular but rather because it wasn't popular, which meant that the teachers could teach programming instead of a language.
The students had lots of opinions about that.
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Jörgen Andersson wrote: could teach programming instead of a language
Hear! Hear! 
You'll never get very far if all you do is follow instructions.
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