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IMHO... MS screwed up with Win 8 when they assumed everyone would want the dumb metro screen. If I only ever ran it on a 7" tablet then possibly yes, but I run Win on my laptop and desktop and try to do actual work. This means I don't want every app running full screen. The only apps I ever run full screen are those that have code in them so I can see more of it. Nothing else runs full screen, including Chrome. Few website are made for 24" monitors so I would be wasting real estate if I did that. And I have too many windows open to have everything in full screen. That would be just dumb. But then, I blindly assume most users here are roughly the same in that regard.
With that being said, Win 8.1 is the best OS I've ever had. I installed classic shell to give me my start menu back two years ago and I've never looked back. It solved all the problems Win 8 came with. A simple solution. I've installed it on all my win 8 machines (wife, kids, laptop, desktop, etc). I've never had an issue with it, not one. It won't be needed when 10 comes out, but for now, it makes Win 8.1 stand head and shoulders over Win 7. When I have to use someone's Win 7 at work. I always get annoyed because I just prefer Win 8. Of course, it doesn't speak well of an OS when the first thing you have to do after installing it is to install an app to "fix" it to make it better, but c'est la-vie. It works, is fast, up-to-date, and rarely crashes. And the integration with MS on the backend is also very cool because I like everything synchronizing so my info is always where I am. A potential security issue to be sure, but I still like the convenience.
Sorry to be so verbose, we all have issues... 
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The only diff with win 7 on a desk/laptop is missing start menu. Huge mistake in my opinion-but ms wanted to force users to see the metro feature. I install "classic shell" on all my win 8 machines except tablets. Brings the win 7 start menu - everything else seems to be the same as win 7, but a little faster.
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IMHO Windows 8.x start screen is like playing Where's Waldo?
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Old software (from windows 95 days) that wrote files to the Program Files/xxx/subdir
And the user is NOT ALLOWED to get into subdir (unless they were admin, and they were not).
So, the ability to use old software started failing.
The ability to get "in there" and look at it was blocked by a down-graded security setting for explorer.
Not to mention RETRAINING for non-tech users.
My wife took forever to use the start button. She bought a fast new laptop,
and almost threw it at me. She is screaming about not being able to launch her
gmail. She had the "paper notes" from the old computer. And was trying to follow them.
Then I sit down, COMPLETELY NEW to windows 8... OMG, how to I program one of these panels to
go straight to chrome? Ugghhh...
Installed: Classic Shell... Ah... Usable computer.
The Charms bar SUCKS. Windows Key, then start typing, and it finds what I want. Right click, run as administrator. So nice, so easy. Charms bar. Doesnt even find the same stuff... Ugghhh...
Now... That computer will upgrade to Windows 10. But my windows 7 Pro machine will stay here for as long as I can... (Oh, windows 8 was so bad, I bought my first Mac just to play with it).
My wifes next computer will probably be a Mac... She does email, youtube, some browsing...
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People still remember the problems with the initial version of Windows 8.0.
I've had numerous problems with drivers, crashing, programs switching unexpectedly etc etc.
Windows 8.1 is way better now. They fixed most of the unpleasant things, so actually I prefer using Win 8.
modified 20-Oct-19 21:02pm.
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Another thing that hardly anyone mentions which I find extremely helpful is how Windows 8 integrated the Microsoft Account (aka Live account). At work with AD, we don't think about it too much, but at home with my laptop, desktop, tablet and phone (yes, all Windows 8.1), all of my contacts, calendars, email accounts (outlook/live/Hotmail or not), passwords, browsing history and files on OneDrive are all synced up.
I actually used to run Windows Server so I could use AD at home years ago, but now with Microsoft Account integration, I feel like I have AD everywhere. And if your significant others are using Microsoft Accounts, then sharing files and calendars becomes easy.
But I still find a lot of people just hate Window 8.1, but so many of these are the kind of people who still believe that they have to use the pop mail account that their ISP provides or they're the kind of folks who share email address w/ their significant others.
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Your solution only works if all devices use the same or similar operating systems. Additionally, you are opening yourself to one of the biggest of privacy invasion gaps.
I'm used to a mixture of operating systems (Windows, Android, *ux, Non-stop). Google provides more of an all-purpose solution. Even then I'm very cautious.
The difficult may take time, the impossible a little longer.
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Quote: Google provides more of an all-purpose solution.
So you're saying that you can log onto your Windows 8, Windows 7, Linux and Android, iOS and Windows Phone devices using the same gmail account?
Google does not offer that, and I wouldn't expect them to. Furthermore, what they do offer is not significantly better than Outlook.com, Office.com or Skype. Hangouts would be nice, but they just don't want to offer that in the same way Microsoft offers Office and Skype for Android and iOS.
Quote: Additionally, you are opening yourself to one of the biggest of privacy invasion gaps.
Care to back that up?
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I don't use Google to log into the operating system. Google only maintains my calendar, contacts and any reference documents I consider of minimal security risk. Anything of importance is usually carried on my person in the form of an encrypted memory stick. Social networking, including this forum, is kept to a minimum.
My Windows platform is primarily a word/spreadsheet processing station with graphics/gaming thrown in for recreational purposes. Due to certain performance issues, I don't use Outlook or Skype. For email, I prefer to rely on the email server packages associated with my email accounts and access those using whatever browser is available on the platform I am using. (Business is kept separate from personal.)
The difficult may take time, the impossible a little longer.
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Message Closed
modified 6-Jan-20 17:05pm.
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Your initial comment was about Active Directory and its portability through a single operating system. Outlook.com and Office.com are just extensions of AD. I get much of the same portability through Google. As to the mention of Outlook vs Outlook.com, Outlook is a POP3 client that works with the POP3 server at Outlook.com. By using the email server packages, I reduce the overheads associated with the email client and better manage my business. If you have multiple email accounts, Outlook is NOT the way to go.
The difficult may take time, the impossible a little longer.
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Quote: Outlook.com and Office.com are just extensions of AD
So you need a domain admin and active directory server to run http://outlook.com and http://office.com ?
Quote: Outlook is a POP3 client that works with the POP3 server at Outlook.com
Outlook handles multiple protocols including Exchange, POP3, and IMAP. And I doubt that that Outlook.com is using a POP3 server for its connector considering that when I read, move or delete an item on one device, it is synchronized on other devices.
I use outlook.com on my desktop with Outlook or Windows Live Mail and on my tablet with Windows Mail (although I can use any of those clients on any of my Windows devices). In fact, I can use my other (multiple) email accounts from gmail, AT&T mail, Nokia mail, and Yahoo via Outlook. And I use Outlook.com via the web browser at work so I can access my personal mail w/o using a email client.
Now, I know that I can't access my Outlook.com mail, AT&T mail, Nokia mail nor Yahoo from Gmail unless I want to use POP3, and who would use POP3 mail in this day and age of multiple devices?
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I agree with you regarding IMAP vs POP3 that POP3 is somewhat obsolete. The only advantage with POP3 is that you can disconnect from the net and take your latest messages with you. With IMAP, you lose that capability and have to reconnect with the net to get your messages. Outlook.com, Live.com, and Hotmail.com are all the same animal. In server-to-server email transfers, POP3 is the easiest protocol to manage and is generally the preferred protocol; which explains why Gmail uses POP3 to communicate with AT&T, Nokia, Yahoo and a few others. I wouldn't be surprised if your only option linking Outlook.com to AT&T is POP3.
The old Outlook client used to download all of your active email threads, including binaries, onto your workstation and possibly fill up your disk as you tried to negotiate through the tons of garbage you receive on a daily basis. (Heaven help you if the server went down while you were trying to delete 80-90 messages in a single action. You would wind up reloading the messages you just deleted in order to delete them again. This is where IMAP wins.) I'm not 100% certain, but I believe the current Outlook client and others like it use a blend of IMAP and POP3 to manage your email. As a security measure, most of the clients allow you to deny downloading of binaries unless specifically requested.
The difficult may take time, the impossible a little longer.
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Here is one, Scrolling.
I live with someone who due to a disability can't use multitouch or a mouse with a scroll wheel. So she uses the scroll bar.
Windows in it's infinite wisdom stuck the scroll bar on the right, and made the exact same area the activation for that pop out drawer. To make it worse, all windows default to full screen, and in metro, you can't pull the windows off of that border.
She can still scroll.
Move the pointer to the scroll bar
wait for the pop out
move the pointer away
wait for the drawer to time out
move the pointer to the exact spot, going too far will cause the drawer to pop out again.
click.
You went too far? start the song and dance all over again.
Try it out, On windows 8, tape over your scroll wheel, feel the frustration.
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Ok, so the bottom line with me is that I have a Windows 8/8.1 tablet computer (Acer R7). Love the computer HATE the OS. Why? It locks regularly and maybe unfreezes after 15 minutes. Else a hard boot. The file system operations sloooooooow down massively for unknown reasons. I have to reboot it once or twice a day to "fix" it. Software updates are fairly regularly via Windows Update but routinely involve 1 GB+ file package sizes. I regret having Windows 8 on my PC. I upgraded to 8.1 and still have these problems. I would dearly love to downgrade to Windows 7 for stability reasons but that's a complete reload and I have to use old drivers from other machines that may or may not work.
Bottom Line: Avoid Windows 8.1 unless you need touch screen support or specifically need 8.1. Use good old reliable Windows 7 instead.
And if you must use 8.1 get Stardock's Start8 for the Start Button bring back.
- Grant
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I don't know so many people are against it. I quite like Win 8/8.1 and some of the changes coming in Win 10 annoy me because they're going 'backwards'. I like the new start screen (always hated the old start menu) - though the visible button in the corner to access it in 8.1 is sensible for new users. I love Metro IE too.I use Win 8/8.1 mostly on a non-touch laptop for work and non-touch desktop for home, occasionally on a Surface Pro 1. I have no issues. Likewise I had very few problems with Vista which everyone hated, and basically see Win 7 as Vista with lipstick but no one else really admits that.
Not every change is going to suit every person, or every workflow so I can understand some people being upset but it seems like a lot of other people are just anti-change or jumping on the bandwagon.
One small problem with 8/8.1 is I find the 'close' gesture for metro apps is very difficult for most people using touch (and they don't know how with the mouse). They either don't drag far enough or the system doesn't register the interaction the right way (usually does with the mouse to be fair). The new title bars kind of fix that, but I personally dislike them. Also, sadly, the 'store' is filled with crap. I would love to use more Metro apps, but there are so few that are actually any good I don't bother with most.
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Do Java developers wear glasses because they can't C#?
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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No, they're already very active because they use a lot of Java everyday.
The sh*t I complain about
It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem
~! Firewall !~
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Quote: they use a lot of Java
Well, most programmers drink a lot of coffee. What's your point?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Similar to what you're pointing at. 
The sh*t I complain about
It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem
~! Firewall !~
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Wouldn't that be a spectacle? 
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Eye see you like to wear a monocle good Sir
(Yes I am drinking tea at the moment  )
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No, Java developers wear glasses because they can't F#. 
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I thought it was so that no-one would punch them.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Mark_Wallace wrote: I thought it was so that no-one would punch them.
Makes me glad I've got a pair. Two pairs, with reading glasses. I've only ever coded about ten lines of Java in my whole life, for a friend's homework assignment, but I'm sure I have some C# lying somewhere, taunting someone until they have to hit me.
No object is so beautiful that, under certain conditions, it will not look ugly. - Oscar Wilde
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