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OriginalGriff wrote: for a more complex project just sorting out makefiles by hand is a PITA
Yes, that's when an IDE becomes helpful. But up until that point it's more of a hindrance. (In my opinion.)
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The Linux guy is wrong. He doesn't have to install Visual Studio or an IDE. He can use his favorite text editor to author C# code and run csc from the command line.
/ravi
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+5
I'm shocked it took this long for someone to resist the urge to flame the heathen and point out the obvious. 
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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Reminds me of the "medic" who insisted on decorating his hallway through the letter box.
Pride is closely related to fear.
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The day that Django/Python can do what LINQ can do in C# and the processing that I do in C# for a drone project I am building, then that day I will believe this 
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"I have to actually install Visual Studio"
Er....Doesn't he have to install the Python environment? (Plus all the add on libraries for mathematics and image manipulation etc.) All the right versions installed in the right order. Otherwise they don't work. If there's a problem he can always sit there for weeks looking through the source code. Looking through the source code of all that stuff is enough to convince anybody that it is not something you should be wasting your time on. Believe me.
I did this the other way around. I left 'cos I refused to struggle any more with their antiquated Python command line rubbish. I wanted to work with C# and an IDE
The only crime people like that commit is they think they are cleverer than everybody else. They think they know it all. They have long since stopped learning. They then waste their lives tangling themselves up in knots working with first principles stuff in an ever increasingly complex world. This is their crime. This is also their punishment. The only problem I have, is that it's always me that ends up looking for a new job.
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To code & build software IDE's save a lot of time to code, and drag-n-drop is replacing scripting for builds, TFS a good example of mixing them with scripting to handle all needs.
I like F# & VB for .Net as they translate easily to move something into the functional, mgr's want only C#, don't like VB and zero F# is the current fashion.
Just sayin', C# has all the emphasis but hard to program in a functional way, have the wrox book on that, IDE or not, if you look at the rants it's over declarative vs imperative as well as command-line vs IDE.
If someone is that hot on cmd, cool, that's one out of how many coders? Perspective says IDE's are needed for a lot of people vs those that are good at the manual entry.
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One of the first things I learned when I started fixing / building things was, use the right tool for the job. Every job is different and requires different tools. Your "friend" is obviously closed minded, but don't discount the idea that his tools might actually be the right answer for this particular problem. Learn from his strengths. Live with his weaknesses and combine it all to be a better, more valuable asset yourself. Don't close yourself off to other ideas. Managers appreciate employees who can offer multiple solutions for them to choose from. Linux offers very low cost solutions with open source transparency. Windows / Visual Studio is an excellent RAD platform but comes at a cost. Return on investment is key in the "real world".
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I have used dozens of languages and C# is nothing special. The only reason that I see to use it is that Microsoft has placed a lot of their libraries in .NET. But, if you really need to use it, use C++/CLR because its a lot faster. That's what Microsoft does.
As far as Visual Studio and an IDE, I personally don't like them. Microsoft has done a very good job on the C++ compiler (except for eliminating inline assembly in x64). Its really hard to beat the generated assembly most of the time. When I have tested it, it has given results that are usually better than most other compilers. Intel's compiler is also good but I haven't used it in some years. Sometimes GCC is really good and sometimes not (for example, it can f**k up integer overflow by just deleting code, Microsoft gets it right regardless of the C and C++ standards).
I have, in the past, had to develop so that my code would run on multiple platforms. Consequently, I use the command line for compilation so that it will work cross platform. I use a mixture of tools and develop under Windows for convenience. Then I just compile my target code.
I have never seen an IDE I like. They usually force me to use a coding style I don't like and won't use. They all suck almost as badly as Notepad for editing. I use an editor with several thousand lines of extensions that is extremely powerful. That is critical to my performance. Just as importantly, I use a NorthGate OmniKey/ULTRA keyboard (always looking for more of those).
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I know this discussion is getting kind of old, but I thought I'd add my two cents.
For years, I've been coding in a Linux environment with EMACS (I know, that's another topic for discussion) which in my dev env had no autocomplete, but had syntax coloring. I started out in school with emacs on a dumb terminal which was awesome in that you had pretty good control of the text (which is what emacs was good at and was created for in the first place). Point being, there was no crutch as far as syntax was concerned because you were tested on that sort of thing in school.
So, now, in my professional world it has been a slow migration toward IDEs with all its functionality to allow me to not have to think about how to implement something on a micro level but think about the big picture. I think that when I use languages with a big API, I don't want to have to remember all the methods used in a standard Map or List to get my work done. I know the syntax of the base keywords in many languages and THAT is required because that goes down to basic language functionality. You need to know how to create a for loop and use if-else and switch statements, etc. to even get a start on implementing code in your project.
So then I migrated to using Netbeans and eclipse for C++ and it had autocomplete and syntax coloring and could wire in a compiler and debugger. I now develop in C# and use Visual Studio. These tools now allow me to code much quicker and my SLOC counts are much larger because of these because I can think about the big picture and allow the tools to help me implement on a lower level much easier and quicker. Because, after all, quicker means cheaper and that's the name of the game these days.
It looks like I added more like $2.
Cheers...Steve--
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Gosh, you're asking him to learn some new tools and he refuses? Sounds like its time for him to find employment elsewhere.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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Can I have his job? I'd love to work in C#! I'm looking right now. 
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If your colleague really wants to be an idiot, there's nothing stopping them from using some antique line-oriented editor (remember DEC's SOS editor from the 1970s?, or maybe emacs on a VT-100 terminal) to edit their program and using visual studio's command-line tools to compile it. There's even a way to install just the command-line compiler and linker. Horrible as it sounds, that's how google's Chromium project compiles for windows.
I suspect your colleague's disdain for C# probably goes deeper than that. Visual Studio's IDE is really quite productive, though I also like Eclipse (when it isn't crashing on me).
Sigh.
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I think you guys are missing the point.
A good text editor has nothing to do with notepad (I think notepad++ isn't a satisfactory improvement).
I work daily with SublimeText, and I assure you I'm more productive and learned a lot than when I used Visual Studio/C#. Like your coworker, I defended a platform change in our company. We have successfully migrated our C# solution, that ran only in Windows, in a Django/Python service. I had fights with my teammates at the time, it wasn't a soft transition, but there's a lot of advantages, we ship code better and faster than never.
I doubt that anyone code in Visual Studio faster than an expert vim programmer. I've seen one of them in a Google keynote about Angular.js, they are insanely fast.
There's no reason to develop a serious application in a closed platform, which project itself is a great failure (they copied the JIT compiler thing from Java, except that Java does it because it's multiplatform, opposed to .NET -- Mono is buggy and very very unofficial). The worst part is that a single company that controls everything. The best thing that happened to software development was open source, an having a good community around it makes the difference The community around C# is poor, partially because they can't have a role in the language/framework development. "Open source" doesn't mean I'm saying "linux rules windows sucks", I'm talking about reusing code/components from someone else. You do it everyday, except that the guys who write the code you reuse are Microsoft employees pressed to keep old standards, the code that I use are from passionated developers around the world.
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Suppose, if you really wanted to, one could draw an entire 2015 Dodge Viper in 3d via the Autocad commandline,
Of course most would likely prefer the IDE 
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You do not need an IDE to program C#.
You can always use any text editor and csc.exe. (C-Sharp Compiler)
If you have dotNET, you have csc.exe.
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I have been invited to a Google Hangouts conversation.
Never used it before; don't have the first clue.
I just Googled GOOGLE HANGOUTS[^] and I'm following as best I can.
I'm not sure, but I think our company E-Mail administrator has already set up a Google Hangouts account for me. I hope to have this knowledge under control by bedtime tonight.
I've downloaded fifteen video clips from YouTube which purport to explain them.
With that in mind, I'm going to invoke my own Do-It-Yourself Google Hangouts training school this evening, and see if I can become competent enough for Monday Morning when this guy wants to talk.
I'm really not following the reasoning on all this; but that's good because I'll probably learn something. It just doesn't make sense to me that Google would feel the need to create this when, as best I can tell, Skype would work just fine.
Feedback, comments, and advice are welcome; indeed, eagerly invited.
Oh,,,, and if anyone wants to spend ten minutes as my practice dummy on google hangouts, you'd be doing me a favor.
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Skype would work just fine.
Did you forget who owns Skype.
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Aha.
Yes I did.
Good thinking brain there.
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Still clicking on every link I see on my screen.
Some of them work; most do nothing.
Does Google Hangouts work on a desktop Windows PC ?
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What gives with this message ?
Google+ is not available for your organization (zyxwvutsrqp.com). Please contact your administrator to enable this service for at least one user in the organization.
Is it a free app or not ?
Can I install it on a PC or not ?
I keep arriving on an android screen.
Huh ?
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Yesterday I was cutting code in Visual Studio 2015,
Today I was cutting meadow grass with a scythe.
Ireland is a very strange place.
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Duncan Edwards Jones wrote: I was cutting meadow grass with a scythe
You Luddite, with your hand tools!! Afraid of advanced technology are ye?
Duncan Edwards Jones wrote: I was cutting code in Visual Studio 2015
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Recently I noticed that my new(er) computer (i7, 8Gb Ram, 1TB drive) reports that I've used something like 392GB of my availalbe 921GB.
It looks like this:
http://newtonsaber.com/images/codeproj/drivestats1.png[^]
I thought that sounded like a lot, because I have basically nothing on the machine.
I examined c:\windows\ thinking maybe 8.1 was large: About 20GB in there.
Next I examined all Program Files (x86), Program Files (64), and ProgramData dirs and they equaled about 20Gb.
I was really stumped so I selected all folders on my drive and examined them and it said I had 127GB used. What?
You can see it at:
http://newtonsaber.com/images/codeproj/drivestats2.png[^]
Okay, so there are hidden files on Windows Systems and maybe other explanations for this?!? Anyone got any explanations?
I'm talking about 260GB of space or something. What would that be? That's a lot of data space.
Plus, that's double what I'm supposedly using when examining via File Explorer.
I just don't get it. Is this acceptable and expected?
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No idea?? How much space is taken up by your System Restore files? Just another reason I am grateful I dumped 8.1 and went back to Windows 7! When Win 10 settles down, I'll jump straight to 10.
How do we preserve the wisdom men will need,
when their violent passions are spent?
- The Lost Horizon
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