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*UGH*
Rain a few degrees above freezing is much colder than snow when its a few degrees below.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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I can't drive when it's snowing, I get hypnotised and don't see past the effect on the windscreen.
Nearly ran over a bloke crossing the road on my way home last week, just didn't see him at all, missed him by at most a foot because he got a shift on.
Some men are born mediocre, some men achieve mediocrity, and some men have mediocrity thrust upon them.
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Hey everyone! Wasn't sure where to post this, because this qualifies as a freelance topic, not a programming topic. But anyways:
I represent a newly formed freelance team in Taiwan that is in the process of dipping into the pool of projects in the North American/Europe regions. Don't worry, I'm not over here asking for project offers.
I only have a basic knowledge of programming, however my colleagues are experts in the field. Due to my command of the English language (and, apparently, my googling skills), I will act as the "project hunter" as well as the mouth and ears of our team.
Now comes the point of my post. Honestly, this is my first time in the freelance business. I understand that it is a very competitive field. I have already looked through numerous project posting websites (guru, peopleperhour, toptal, upwork, truelancer etc.) Are sites like these the best avenue for finding worthwhile projects?
-Are overvalued projects a common occurrence in the western market (low-ball prices)? What about low-bidding and where to avoid it (if even possible)?
-Are there other effective avenues of finding projects (referrals, forums, etc.)?
If any generous freelancers (or employers who commonly search for freelancers) have any tips and advice for my newbie self, it would be most appreciated!
And now, here's a joke so you readers can get something out of this post:
So there's this cow-herding dog that has the ability to talk. After the dog gets all of the cattle into their enclosure, he reports back to the farmer: “All 50 cattle are accounted for.”
“But I only have 46 cattle” says the farmer.
“I know” says the herding dog. “But I rounded them up”.
Hue hue hue.... I'll see myself out.
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I'm not a freelancer (at least I don't identify as one, I identify as an independent contractor) but I do that type of work. In all my life I've never looked at freelancer type sites, or those types of projects, and I never will. Now this is 20% from reading about people's experiences, and 80% just personal prejudice on my part, but my overall opinion of those types of sites are that they attract "clients" that simply don't want to pay you at all, or not pay you what was agreed, or just pay you a low rate overall. Basically it's a charter for the big fish to rip off the little fish.
I work for companies that want quality workers, want a good standard of work BUT (yes, that's a big but) know that to get that kind of work and that kind of worker they will have to pay for it. I'm not a monkey, I don't work for peanuts.
If you're a company looking after a team then you have even more overheads (your time, for example, probably isn't billable) which will stretch the profits you can get from these jobs even more. Also you should factor in the time and costs chasing up people that simply don't pay. Do you really want to take jobs where the client insists that all code is on their systems at all times and you'll only get paid when they're happy? Don't you have better things to be doing with your time than chasing timewasters who obviously just don't want to pay you for the work you've done?
My advice would be to ignore the freelancer sites and build direct relationships with companies that need development resources, as companies that are genuine don't use freelancer sites either.
Anyway, that's my 2 pennies, others may have a different view.
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Thank you very much for replying. I was afraid I would get responses like this. That just compounds my fear of the difficulty of entering the realm of freelancing.
Would you have any advice on how to best establish relationships with companies from a "hard to access" location? I hear that meetings in person have a drastically greater effect than meeting through the net/phone. Maybe I'm overthinking, but i fear that due to the fact that we are base in Taiwan, it would be much harder for us to lay the foundations of a valued relationship with any US/EURO company as opposed to a competitor who lives there.
-Should I avoid Pay/hour projects?
-I realize that consultants/contractors such as yourself who have worked for years would possess more opportunities of finding additional projects in the US compared to a newcomer who worked zero years there. My question is, where do I start to build such relationships? Is it absolutely necessary to work at a software company in the US for a few years for the "experience factor" before companies would take my team seriously, or do I have other options? Could I start from one of those freelancer sites, build up my profile and hope to impress someone? Or are there other avenues?
-Should I spend more time on the quantity of potential employers, or on courting a focused group of employers?
-How large of a disadvantage do you think we have simply because we are based in Taiwan and cannot find local contracts where you have to show up in person?
Sorry for my flood of questions, but I'd just like to know where someone in my position should start in order enter this realm of a programming freelancer/contractor/consultant in the western theater.
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Unfortunately I'm not really in much of a position to answer those questions...I write code for a living, I don't know anything about running an agency  I get all my work through agencies (such as the one you are trying to start) so can only give my layman view of things really.
BossGiveMeArrays wrote: Would you have any advice on how to best establish relationships with companies from a "hard to access" location?
One of the hardest things for anyone starting in a crowded market is probably getting your foot in the door and gaining the rep. It's a bit of a catch-22 as almost all companies I know have what's known as a "preferred supplier" list of agents they work with. If they need someone the ask the one or two agents on this list for CVs etc. Any CVs or contacts that come from any other company are simply discarded and not even looked at. Agencies do tend to spam and bombard companies with unsolicited CVs, and people are sick of that kind of thing these days which is why they stick to preferred suppliers. How do you get yourself on these lists with no rep? I suppose that will be a long-term goal rather than a short-term one. I suppose you need to build up a rep and possible client base first.
As for your location, yes it is going to be harder, especially if you plan on doing the work remotely too...that's a whole different market and ballgame, you're basically looking at running an "out-souring" or "off-shoring" agency. Many companies simply refuse to do this; they want a bum on a seat, they want physical access to people and meetings without time and language barriers. That's something you're just going to have to deal with if you want to work in the US\EU. However there are companies that do what to off-shore, you just need to focus on them.
BossGiveMeArrays wrote: Should I avoid Pay/hour projects?
I guess that's for you to decide. There are pros and cons to all types of billing model so I'd suggest tailoring the model to the client. Some will want $\h, some will want a flat per project fee. Obviously if you charge per hour you are guaranteed to be paid for what you do but profit is limited and if you run over you'll really annoy and maybe lose your client. Flat fee for a project means a better chance at profit if you bring it in on time, but will need better planning and a risk that you'll actually lose money on the project if you run over. Maybe a substantial loss too.
BossGiveMeArrays wrote: My question is, where do I start to build such relationships?
As I said above, I really don't know, that's a side of the industry I don't get involved in. I have agents I use and when my contract is coming to an end I tell those agents (I also run from a limited preferred supplier list ) and they tell me what they have coming up and try and get me the contract. How those agents build their contact list...I don't know. I don't doubt it is something that simply grows over time if your company does well. It's also going to be a lot of phone calling, trying to set up meetings, trying to win business etc. If it was easy everyone would do it. That's why I write code instead, if I don't know the answer to something then Google does
BossGiveMeArrays wrote: How large of a disadvantage do you think we have simply because we are based in Taiwan and cannot find local contracts where you have to show up in person?
As I said above, it's a certain type of work called outsourcing, and some companies do still do it, but these days many don't...sadly because they've tried it in the past and got their fingers burnt. Time delays, language barriers, poor communication, poor feedback mechanisms and often just poor quality work all lead to a lot of hassle and many employers think it's not cost-saving in the long run, they prefer to pay more for better people and have those people in-house.
Have a look at most questions on this site...notice how many are from people in a particular country? Most of these people are working in out-sourcing firms and this is what they do....they have no aptitude for the job, they just need the money, so when given a task they ask a question on here and expect others to do the work for them. That is largely the experience people have of our-source companies and why the "fad" is dying. My main advice to you would be that if you are going to do this, make sure you have good quality workers, and make sure you really tackle the whole communications and feedback issues, look at how other agencies keep clients updated and in the loop and try and learn from other companies failures.
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I find good how you ask things and the approach you are taking.
I am not and haven't been independent. I have worked for a contractor company, but I had to search for customers for a while.
First contact is always a PITA. I felt like an encyclopedia vendor, ringing on the door of a house and trying to sell my product. And many times it is dammed to fail because the potential customer doesn't want to loose time with something unknown.
I don't know how things are Taiwan. In Germany one of the best opportunities to know people are the companies expositions. But at the end... it is not to know much people what gives you projects, it is that people knows you.
In my case... My company had a re-structuration. CEO and some other high rank went picking some workers and grounded a competitor company. The last project they got was a chaos, bad calculations, too cheap conditions and, and, and... The luck in that project was 2 things: that a very good manager from the central took over, that I was in that project. He got ride of all economical questions and I was able to finish my part, the part of a colleague that left with the others, finish the wish lists (payed in extra bill) and find two errors at customers side that could have cost more than 500k €
12 Contractors started in that company. 18 months later only 3 remained. At 24th months, I negotiate a 50% more charge with the customer and they blindly agree, at 30th month they tried to recruit me.
One year later my sales manager told me, he had won a big project with a new customer that explicitly demanded me as a head programer for the team. That project came due to someone I had worked with and changed to a big company. When they needed something in my action area, he explained his bosses about my company and me.
What I want to say is... in Europe to gain a new customer from the scratch is not easy at all. But once you have had your first one, if you do your job correctly, the probabilities to get new ones raise quite fast.
Which leads me to... although I strongly agree with F-ES answer. I see it actually a theme of balance and risk acceptance.
If you have no contacts at all, AND (big AND) if you have money to survive for a while... then I would go for a "freelancer" project knowing the risks explained by F-ES and others in this thread, but assuming them consciously just to get the opportunity of you being there (Visa, paperworks and so on). Once there... is totally different than trying it from Taiwan.
If not... I would try to get an international customer with a subsidiary in Taiwan, rip my ass off to do a very good job that impress them (even with not a big economical profit), and then try to get a project within that multinational but in another country... then another... and so on. Somewhen you will know enough people to jump to other multinational and so on. On the best case, they will come to you and ask (as it happened to me).
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Freelancer sites, as much as job-seeking ones, are definetely places to avoid if someone is looking for a serious contract or job. They are cheap (if not free) for the user and cheap (if not free) for the customers, and the rule "you get what you pay for" is golden and always valid.
This is based 50% from my own and friends' experience and 50% from having seen from the inside the development of a handful of these sites.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
"When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page." -- Mike Hankey
"just eat it, eat it"."They're out to mold, better eat while you can" -- HobbyProggy
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To be honest, I've no interest in helping move jobs offshore - potentially lowering my own earnings and adding further grief to the difficulties of local developer/job-seekers.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Hi there,
well you are jumping in a pool of sharks i guess. From the point of my view, as far as my experience got with freelancers and the experience with foreign programmers i can tell you the following.
If you want to get into the EU/US Market, i mostly speak for the EU market though, you have to get a name, reputation and/or have a big chunk of luck.
To start you guys might have to bite through a hard time, because your location is not the best as you maybe know. To tell you how i would look for another freelancer:
-I'd check the websites/forums famous in germany for good people (There is your first hurdle, no one knows you there)
-I'd look whos suitable for this task and time and fits into the budget (I'll start with the lowest budget possible, might be your chance to get in) An example budget would be a ~50k for 6 months (Depends on the Tasks i would hand, this 50k would more be for a developer than programmer)
-Then i look for things i personally like, e.g. availability at the office, especially for the beginning
That are 3 main points you might have to think about and start calculating. Think about your team, do they have different specializations? What project could possibly be open for more than 1 person?
Your big winning point could be "cheapness", i don't know how much you need p.p. but i guess you could bid under most freelancers here.
The team thing, yeah a team is basically good, but you have to organize it fitting. Special abilities, knowledge and stuff, you have to play those cards to either get a bigger project and filling out more roles or get multiple things. I personally want an engineer, a "true" programmer doesn't fit the needs, for that i could take a student or cheap apprentice on programming(You can't beat that price probably). I would need someone who thinks and has ideas to drive it forward. Do you have such personell, qualities and skills? That would be important on most things. Think about it when you develope your team forwards
And to the worst, the location, so far i heard, things tend to go to scrums and short meetings that have no fixed shedule, so i guess at some point you guys have to decide wether you stay where you are or get to the country you want to work. Telephoneconference is not always sufficient.
So...
To get into a market i guess you have to take nearly everything you might get to then get reputation step by step. Or have a big chunk of luck, getting the chance to prove yourself on a big thing.
Maybe you could also start by filling holes/niches in the countries you want to start. Put everything you did on your presentation, show them what you did and that you did it good!
But after all, there is no master reciepe for that
And don't get me wrong, but here, programmers from Taiwan don't have a good rep at all. You'll have a hard time overcoming prejudice i guess.
Nonetheless i wish you luck on your trip into the wild seas of the freelancers.
Rules for the FOSW ![ ^]
if(this.signature != "")
{
MessageBox.Show("This is my signature: " + Environment.NewLine + signature);
}
else
{
MessageBox.Show("404-Signature not found");
}
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Thank you all very much for taking the time to respond. I just figured out how to upvote I learned quite a lot from your replies. It seems we have quite an uphill battle ahead of us. And I was unaware of this stereotype about Taiwanese programmers 
modified 20-Jan-16 21:36pm.
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๑๒๓๔๕๖๗๖๘๙ (10)
IMPORTANT - Take care for the small differences (4th and 5th letter)!!!
Hint: What you see are not letters but Thai numeric signs...
Hint: Those believe, count every step in their life
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
modified 19-Jan-16 5:45am.
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It is not...
1B 5W
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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Kornfeld Eliyahu Peter wrote: It is not...
Oh yes it is... 
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Well google translate thinks it's 1234567890, but that ain't a word! 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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As always Google got it a bit wrong - it should be 1234567689, and it meant to be a hint...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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According to Google 676 (the bit in the sequence which stands out) is a Restaurant, but that doesn't fit (other than being 10 letters)
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Never ate there... 
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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1B 3W
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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OK another guess to get some more B/W clues - clothesbag
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0B 4W
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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flummoxing = 1B
Describing = 1B
Doesn't that mean the g is the correct letter in the correct location?
clothesbag should be at least 1B too, or am I missing something again
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Display Name Taken wrote: Doesn't that mean the g is the correct letter in the correct location?
Why?
It may be, but it could be the "X" in FLUMMOXING and the "S" in DESCRIBING if there is no "G" in the solution.
(Not saying it's them, I have no idea what the solution is)
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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