|
Let me tell you a story that happened to me, as it is instuctive. Picture me, a handsome idealistic young dev (OK, just the last one) making my way through university. Courtesy of the BCS the course has a mandatory "group project" element, sadly. The groups are divided along exam result lines - two people expected to get distinctions*, two people expected to fail and about 6 in-betweeners, this seemed to be par for the course. Anyhoo- my team progressed as you'd guess - the distinction-bound did most of the coding the in-betweeners did some coding, styling and organisation of rooms etc, the ones failing barely involved themselves.
But wait I here you wail, this is the ballad of Mister X - where is he? We shall lay our scene in a music-room, where the first meeting was held. We divided work into as reasonable chunks as we could, Mister X said he had mad Flash skillz and offered to do some nice front end work and animations for our site. Mister X smiled a smile the Cheshire cat would have been proud of. Imagine, if you will, it is now two-days before submission, and the final meeting is being held. Despite several attempts, Mister X had been uncontactable fir weeks, but he'd finally turned up. We asked him for the flash to plug into our page. Nothing. Nada. Nowt. He "hadn't had time" - this went down well with the main devs, who's put in 100+ hours each over the previous 2-3 weeks to produce a working site. We later found out he'd gone on holiday back to Hong-Kong, whence he hailed. He received a grade of 2% of the overall effort of the team when this was divided up.
Fast forward 10 years. You humble correspondent, now broader of beam and thinner of hair, is a senior developer in a financial institution. And we are hiring .net developers. We see a few candidates and put them through a developer test. One particularly promising candidate is a fellow senior dev in Midlands-based building society. I was called in to review the code (in truth, 'twas I who helped devise the test) and the code was woeful. The task was broken down into steps (e.g. read a file, process) but there was no attempt at OO. The code was entirely disjointed - nothing was making it hang together each step was isolated, but not in a good way - all within a single procedure. Worse the code style was all over ye-shoppe. Naming conventions differed, part K&R, part c# standard layout, at one point a variable was named something completely irrelevant to the problem. How could this be? We had a senior dev in for interview. I checked the browser history. The senior dev had googled each step, copied and pasted, and had not the wit to even cobble it together. I've seen undergrads produce better.
My boss and I went in to the room where he was waiting, to basically tell him not to darken our doors (OK provide feedback). His face was familiar, but I couldn't place him. Then the Cheshire-Cat grin appeared, at least until he realised who I was and the gig was up.
tl:dr; chumps remain chumps, even if they have relatively successful careers.
* Curiously this was a poor strategy. There were a couple of groups who had people in the top category who'd worked extremely hard but -even by their own admission- couldn't code for toffee and their teams actually struggled to produce a working bit of software
[Edit]
I don't English very well - fixed the most egregious examples of this.
modified 9-May-16 6:45am.
|
|
|
|
|
On a related note, when I was at school, French was compulsory - and I was rubbish at it, and so in the bottom stream. Came the exams...
One exam was oral dictation: the teacher would read a passage in French and we had to write it down under exam conditions. One point per correct word, one deducted for each missed or misspelled word.
Half the class did not attend for the exam, and were given zero. Which meant they passed it as the rest of us got nowhere near that high a score...
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
|
|
|
|
|
I remember my French Oral, we knew we would be asked to talk 'with' the teacher on one of three subjects. I just learnt by rote five minute talks on each. The oral was around 15 minutes and after the introduction and being told what to do, there was barely five minutes left. I started jabbering away about 'le camping' and he didn't get a word in edge ways until the time was up.
Grade 1 CSE *ker-ching*
veni bibi saltavi
|
|
|
|
|
On my oral French, I didn't know the subject beforehand. When I got in, I drew "haute couture" - Yeah, like I would know jack about that. Still managed to somehow get a good score, though. Still to date don't know how...
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
|
|
|
|
|
OriginalGriff wrote: Half the class did not attend for the exam, and were given zero. Which meant they passed it as the rest of us got nowhere near that high a score...
Attending the exam and failing vs. bunking and passing
But seriously, how can you pass an exam that you didn't take?  In India, that's as bad as a fail.
Cheers,
विक्रम
"We have already been through this, I am not going to repeat myself." - fat_boy, in a global warming thread 
|
|
|
|
|
in a previous work we also devised a test for new hires.
Given, an empty winforms project and a text file with some text.
In a timespan of 30-45 minutes the test subject had to read in the text file, convert each other letter to uppercase and display it in text box.
Extra points for adding a progressbar and the time the conversion took.
So you read the resume and it says ".net certified" or something similar. The code produced after about 60 minutes: 4 lines, with 2 lines of those in comment.
I even had one who replied "I don't know" when I asked him what ".net certified" meant.
So yes, there are those guilty of many a 1D10T errors in tha brain 
|
|
|
|
|
V. wrote: I even had one who replied "I don't know" when I asked him what ".net certified" meant.
The correct answer is obvious: Absolutely nothing. 
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
|
|
|
|
|
On my most recent employment interview, I was asked to do something very similar. It was a first for me, I had never had to do a practical programming test before, so I was actually scared shitless (until I saw the tasks). I was allowed to Google, but never did. Had 4 hours in which to complete the tasks, did it in 1½.
The bosses were mighty impressed. They told me after I got the job that they had had a lot of people fail to produce anything. I was REALLY surprised, because it was SO basic, and I had done similar tasks a million times before.
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
modified 9-May-16 9:52am.
|
|
|
|
|
ha, I was surprised at the results too. Those who get it done, do so pretty quick, those who take too long, usually don't produce anything...
(PS: Our google and MSDN where also enabled so looking up was also possible)
|
|
|
|
|
Because we are in the Kali Yuga, the final, fourth stage, of the cosmic cycle, where Goddess Kali presides over an exponential increase in entropy as apocalypse nears ?
Because we live in a cut-and-paste world where nothing is original ?
Because human nature includes stupidity, overweening pride, and greed ?
Because thousands of sheeple follow digital shepherds who feed them pixellated grass ?
Because we are old, and tired, and enjoy forgetting when we were young, and brash, and our confidence exceeded out abilities by a macroscopic margin ?
Bill
«There is a spectrum, from "clearly desirable behaviour," to "possibly dodgy behavior that still makes some sense," to "clearly undesirable behavior." We try to make the latter into warnings or, better, errors. But stuff that is in the middle category you don’t want to restrict unless there is a clear way to work around it.» Eric Lippert, May 14, 2008
|
|
|
|
|
We ( old gits ) are the architects of this situation - newbie programmers / developers have access to millions of code samples and tutorials some good some not so good all useless if you don't understand , as an old git I spent fortunes on books and seminars and anything that would further my knowledge and it took a long time but it went in - I have to add this though - the first place I go now if I need a kickstart on something new to me is the Web but I know what I'm looking for and I won't use it until I understand it
We can’t stop here, this is bat country - Hunter S Thompson RIP
|
|
|
|
|
Maybe not that new - but just getting worse in terms of the number of people who:
(1) call themselves programmers - perhaps because it's cool
(2) because everyone's got their hand glued to a device with "Apps"
But many many years ago, the IT security officer at the facility where I worked (a CS major/graduate) observed that Chemist, Physicists, and Chess Players were all generally better programmers than the CS graduates. This was a long time ago.
How does it relate, or for that matter, even make sense?
Hypothesis: the group of people, mentioned above, as better, typically programmed for the sheer fun of it and/or to do calculations or instrument automation. In general they were making something for themselves that they really wanted to work - and had the nature to know how things work . . . and the aptitude. Typically, they spent their time on applications and not systems. Extrapolate a bit into the future: the self-taught game-developers (at least "of Olde") are surely amongst the best of the best. Wolfenstein and Doom engines? The inventors of Unix? They all had something they wanted to do and do well - so learning to program well was a fierce drive that was more than just a job.
Now, don't anyone get into a snit - there are surely a large number of CS major who are good at what they do.
But the passion to do something . . . not because it was cool, but because one is driven to do it . . . it's not something you decide to do after you squander you coins on an iDevice. It's because the need to build and explore is an itch that demands to be scratched: l a part of who you are because you always were.
* New radio button selection needed (like rant, answer, etc.): Romantic Spew
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
|
|
|
|
|
Decrepit old farts like you and I started out with limited CPU time, we had to know what were doing and understand the implications. I remember at college being allowed one compile and run PER DAY, feck that up at your peril young man. Sadly the new fangled hack and deploy mentality is far too prevalent. Yesterday I was discussing how to 'safely' take onboard fast deploy methods like DevOps in a FinTech environment. Yup, the script kiddies are that far up the food chain that not only can they suggest test in production for a friggin bank, but it actually gets discussed.
I need a new career, maybe alligator dentistry would be safer.
veni bibi saltavi
|
|
|
|
|
Nagy Vilmos wrote: maybe alligator dentistry would be safer.
Except...you'd have to fly to your patients, and guess who is writing the flight control and air traffic management systems? 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
|
|
|
|
|
You seems to think this is new, but it is not. I quit PHP facebook group 2 years ago (after having 2 years of patience).
When I said "PHP" to experienced programmers, they all frowned as some child language and main reason was the language didn't have classes.  However after clarification they thought about PHP 4.x (5.x is now obsolute and has perfectly implemented single-inheritance classes).
But when I read "PHP" in that group we have people copied some poorly written example HTML form and asking how they can use "PHP" to upload a file. Answers were even more tragic. Messing up HTML and PHP without understanding of underlying HTTP protocol and its limitation. And there were 10+ posts per week like that.
I think too many people heard combination of "programmers gets high wages" and "programming can be learn with just computer and internet", but they missed the hear about "spending 5+ years of your life learning and coding without profit".
To make the things worse a lot of private academy prepare inexperienced people to practical works, which is generally to install libraries and combine library calls, which very often does not work, requires debugging and leave a lot of work to the senior developer.
|
|
|
|
|
OriginalGriff wrote: Thoughts anyone?
The more incompetents in this field the easier it to stand out and get a job for those of us who are competent. Doesn't bother me one bit. 
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
|
|
|
|
|
I think Pressure to Perform might have something to do with it.
And maybe the new math?
New version: WinHeist Version 2.2.2 Beta I told my psychiatrist that I was hearing voices in my head. He said you don't have a psychiatrist!
|
|
|
|
|
I wanted to answer this, but I couldn't find a suitable quip in CP to copy.
|
|
|
|
|
Have you tried here[^] 
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
|
|
|
|
|
OriginalGriff wrote: Thoughts anyone?
I wonder why glue doesn't stick to the inside of the bottle???
Anything that is unrelated to elephants is irrelephant
Anonymous
-
The problem with quotes on the internet is that you can never tell if they're genuine
Winston Churchill, 1944
-
I'd just like a chance to prove that money can't make me happy.
Me, all the time
|
|
|
|
|
The question is are they completely wrong?
When was the last time you had to code a GUI at the point/pixel level, create (from scratch) a database, or do any one of the thousands of things that are nowadays coded and ready to go?
Sure, kids don't know how to PEEK and POKE, but even we don't have to do that, any more. And more and more specialised knowledge is being handled by pre-written code, which, although it can be bulky, wasteful of resources, and slow, compared to bespoke code, it works.
Good programming will likely never something that a layman can pick up quickly, but even with the background tech we have now, code doesn't have to be Good; it only has to work.
If that means importing fifty (resource-hungry, but who cares? Resources are increasing faster than the bloat can keep up) frameworks and jus filling out config files, rather than writing a thousand lines of code, then that's the process.
So I'd say they're not wrong; they're just "otherwise experienced" in how programming works.
That said, it still pisses me off royally; but you've gotta face the future for what it will be, not what you want it to be.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
|
|
|
|
|
It's not the low level stuff that worries me - think of a car: how many modern drivers know what advance / retard is needed for? Why cam profiles aren't symmetrical? They don't need to know, because the car designer does and modern cars do "all that stuff" automatically.
But what I'm talking about is "trained drivers", with "full licences", who don't understand why a wheel stolen from a tractor won't replace their punctured tire! Or why they can't just fill the tank with urine and expect to get good gas mileage...
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
|
|
|
|
|
Granted, but we're already at the place where "tractor" and "low-profile" are just attributes of a "Tyre" object, so we can't blame newcomers for thinking the differences are *hard*, because they should be -- because We want them to be -- ready for our use as much as the "geat unwashed" want them to be.
And if an Engine object can't accept urine as its Fuel object, then you just import a framework where that works.
It's evolution in its purest sense; and I agree that it's as annoying as all get out, but it's how things were made by us to be easier for us, and it will continue down the road that we decided to build.
So I'm happy with it at the same time as being pissed off by it.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
|
|
|
|
|
Movie Quote Of The Day
I did have a fish once, but then he kept looking at me with these eyes, like, 'feed me!' So I flushed him.
Which movie?
|
|
|
|
|
|
General 
News 
Suggestion 
Question 
Bug 
Answer 
Joke 
Praise 
Rant 
Admin 
Submit an article or tip
