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Indeed, I heard that Henry Ford wanted to hold on to the Model T even when he got serious competition from other companies.
The language is JavaScript. that of Mordor, which I will not utter here
This is Javascript. If you put big wheels and a racing stripe on a golf cart, it's still a f***ing golf cart.
"I don't know, extraterrestrial?"
"You mean like from space?"
"No, from Canada."
If software development were a circus, we would all be the clowns.
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We have been using C# (w/WPF) for controlling scientific/laboratory/robotic instruments since 2009. The work is challenging, rewarding, and enjoyable. If we had to start over today, the decision would be harder, but I think there is a strong chance we would choose a multi-threaded C# design running on desktop & laptops again. Limited availability of C# developers is a negative (hence the motivation for this post). The work that the Roslyn team is performing is a positive.
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An interesting question, and one that I grapple with myself, as I personally think that C# is one of (if not the) best programming languages created so far.
I have vowed to never write another line of Ruby code. Ever. I refuse to use Python except for single board computer development, where the community support is awesome enough to overcome my distaste for duck typed script kiddie languages.
That said, being a polyglot is unavoidable. One needs to know a couple back end languages (I'd suggest C# and Python, of all things), a front-end language (Javascript by default, Typescript might be good) one more frameworks (besides .NET on the back end, Angular or Backbone or other on the front end), and knowing some basics about databases is pretty important too.
TheOnlyRealTodd wrote: I want to meet some developers who primarily program with C# and collaborate...
Well, Code Project is a great place for that, I'm one of those C# developers, and I have a lot of half-baked projects on my GitHub account.
TheOnlyRealTodd wrote: Is C# something I can realistically make cutting-edge applications with at this point?
Yes, absolutely. I write web and WinForm apps with C#. For web apps though, because the back-end tends to be rather boilerplate except for the application-specific business rule layer, most of the time I'm writing Javascript and f***ing around with HTML and CSS. That said, I also try to minimize the amount of Javascript I have to write by looking closely at what I'm doing on each page and seeing what are the re-usable patterns. If I can identify a piece of Javacrap that can be abstracted and re-used, that's several fewer lines of Javacrap that I have to write again later. The aforementioned practice appears to be rare in the Javascript community, where the rule seems to be "copy and paste."
TheOnlyRealTodd wrote: Are desktop apps dying
In my opinion, yes. As ironic as it may seem, especially to me, when I do pure WinForm development nowadays, I actually sometimes wish I was writing it for a browser!
TheOnlyRealTodd wrote: or can I really still make some killer stuff with C#?
Yes, you can make killer stuff with C# (I do all the time, if I may so humbly say), but the second half of your question is independent of the first half of your question. I would ask, why would you want to make a killer desktop app when you can reach a far wider community with a platform independent web app? And if you look at things like Google Docs, they can even look like desktop apps. Or, if you look at stuff like CefSharp, you can host a web app inside a WinForm app, and intermix the two.
TheOnlyRealTodd wrote: Xamarin is out of the question for me right now
There's other options out there besides Xamarin, though I get the issue with slow emulation. But those other options are worth exploring too. That said, I actually am enamored with the idea of a hosted web app -- you get cross platform capability without having to go the emulation route.
TheOnlyRealTodd wrote: Do you know of any communities I could get into to pair code with some C#?
I'd be happy to make some time available for such an endeavor. Take a look at my github account[^], see if anything interests you. (edited, link was wrong.)
I also have a project under development, on a private repo, for this site[^]. I could use a hand in getting it ready for an initial test release. C# backend, lightweight Javascript on the front end (Bootstrap, jqWidgets and Knockout), and my own web server implemented in C# -- no Razor, ASP.NET, or other cruft. No Entity Framework, just plain old Linq2SQL and DataContext.
As to actually finding communities that get into pair coding, that's a tough one, and in the long term might be something I'd like the ByteStruck site to promote / support. Open source, while "open", is in my opinion still fragmented and disconnected in terms of how work is done.
TheOnlyRealTodd wrote: I know GitHub comes to mind but a lot of the software there seems to be too complicated for me to just jump right into.
Quite so. I also have an idea for another website, "engineering notes." A very simple design, and there's not a line of code written for it yet (though I intend to re-use the template for the ByteStruck website.) So if you're interested in that... There's also the "poker club" website that I have yet to start... so many projects, so little time. And then of course there's HOPE (see sig).
However, the real question is, what ideas do you have? Are you interested in being in the driver's seat on one of your ideas, and having someone like me help you out with it?
Marc
modified 26-Jun-16 8:54am.
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Marc,
Thanks so much for this amazing reply! Your insight is very beneficial.
Marc Clifton wrote: I'd be happy to make some time available for such an endeavor. Take a look at my github account[^], see if anything interests you. (edited, link was wrong.)
I went through your GitHub and I forked 3 projects that interested me: 1. The Twitter Word Cloud. 2. The Github dashboard 3. the HOPE project. Obviously, the HOPE project is a lot more advanced but it did fascinate me and if at my level I am indeed able to contribute, I'd love to. It may be a good idea to play with the first two a bit first though.
Marc Clifton wrote: I also have a project under development, on a private repo, for this site[^]. I could use a hand in getting it ready for an initial test release. C# backend, lightweight Javascript on the front end (Bootstrap, jqWidgets and Knockout), and my own web server implemented in C# -- no Razor, ASP.NET, or other cruft. No Entity Framework, just plain old Linq2SQL and DataContext.
I just checked it out. I like the idea and would love to help out. It's been a LOOOONG time since I worked with a database though so I'll have to read up on it and perhaps watch a few videos before I can do the SQL stuff. Which won't be a problem because knowledge seems to be widely available.
Marc Clifton wrote: Quite so. I also have an idea for another website, "engineering notes." A very simple design, and there's not a line of code written for it yet (though I intend to re-use the template for the ByteStruck website.) So if you're interested in that... There's also the "poker club" website that I have yet to start... so many projects, so little time. And then of course there's HOPE (see sig).
However, the real question is, what ideas do you have? Are you interested in being in the driver's seat on one of your ideas, and having someone like me help you out with it?
Of course that engineering notes idea sounds awesome too. Perhaps we could discuss this and begin some development. It would be nice to hear your ideas and possibly contribute some of mine.
As far as my ideas... Yes! I actually have several big ideas which are the the driving force behind me learning to program. I didn't just learn just because.. One of my ideas involves location-based meta style service for restaurants like Yelp (but something unique and needed) and the other is job application human resource software. Are you part of any chat group or do you have a means we could collaborate on some of this stuff? That'd be awesome but I think the first step would be me helping you out with some of your smaller C# projects and slowly working into all of this other stuff.
Thanks again,
Todd
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Hi Todd,
Awesome! I'd love to get the engineeering notebook idea off the ground, it's simple enough to go public quickly, and interesting enough add all sorts of bells and whistles. And of course I'd like to hear your ideas too!
Speaking of chat rooms, I've always wanted to build a simple chat room for CP! Of course it wouldn't be restricted to CP, but it would be neat if it could somehow be tailored to CP.
I'm not on any chat room, but I love Slack and created "greatprojectsteam.slack.com" (I like the pun "great projects team" vs. "great project steam", haha)
Send me your email directly and I'll send you an invite, and we can go from there.
Any other CP members looking at this post, if you want to be invited, send me an email, even if you just want to lurk. 
Marc
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Mobile is the hot trend today and if you want to be smart you better run with it. Xamarin gives you the chance to connect your desires with markets.
You better understand that languages are ONLY A TOOL and never the primary goal. I have to use different languages in my work, and sometimes it may change as customers demand other products.
Even javascript has become a powerful language like the ramsonware Locky is demonstrating. 
Press F1 for help or google it.
Greetings from Germany
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KarstenK wrote: You better understand that languages are ONLY A TOOL and never the primary goal. I have to use different languages in my work, and sometimes it may change as customers demand other products.
This is by far the best advice offered in this thread.
Todd, if you said you love Java or PHP or COBOL, the advice is the same -- cultivate your love of programming, not the tool. Lot of folks on this board have been programming for many years. The tools we used several decades ago no longer exist, except as a curiosity. Tools change ... while we remain.
Desktop still exists and will continue to exist for the foreseeable future. There are definite needs for desktop applications -- I work in a mixed shop, we produce specialty application, some of which are computationally intensive. We create desktop applications as some of our applications would bring a web server to its knees, figuratively speaking, with just one user. Desktop wins in this situation.
However, as others have said, there is often more bang for the buck in web apps. My shop produces web apps where possible, it reduces our on-site support costs by a huge margin (we support dozens of regional offices). Look at job postings -- there is more jobs for web than desktop.
Focus on keeping yourself marketable.
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As a follow on -- I watch market share ... although that's an elusive beast, as everyone measures it differently. I read lots of articles to see where the jobs are (take every article with a 5 lb bag of salt), and look into technologies that are on the upswing. Yes, it's a guessing game and not every hot technology will last or gain significant market share.
Be prepared to spend the remainder of your career learning. When you stop learning, your future options narrow and eventually dry up.
Regarding "real languages"? Every language that has a significant market share is a real language. Using market share as a yard stick -- PHP, Python, and Javascript are more real than C# and Java.
I did Visual Basic as a primary language from 1993 into the early 2000's. People whine about VB ... but VB had the largest chunk of the market and I never wanted for a job. However, VB is dead now and I'm long since into other technologies. [I started into VB.NET but shifted into C# as it looked like a better choice, an idea that has proven itself. Plus I learned other technologies.]
Never let someone else's arbitrary opinion on a technology sway you. Look at market share and especially local job availability -- a paycheck is the ultimate indicator. 
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I was using C# and loved it before xamarin was bought from microsoft, but I left it since I think everything goes web now and couldn't make multi platform apps so easily .Though if you want to built games C# shines with Unity and its multi platform easiness.You can be a full stack developer with C# as back end and learn some html/css and javascript for front end.I think asp.net pages are really strong and some of our biggest sites in my country are built with it.In programming world unfortunately, you should be open minded and learn more than one thing to progress.If you have learned C# and you are in a good level in it, everything will be more simple for you, so don't worry.Also I agree with the above replies that we almost have an app for everything.
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"I want to meet some developers who primarily program with C# and collaborate... "
Maybe look for some .NET user groups, or Code Camps that specifically focus on the Microsoft development stack.
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I’d like to be able to tell you that you can have a lucrative career as a C# developer, but I can’t. I’m not saying that you CAN’T make it as a C# developer, but the sad fact of the matter is that technology jobs are beholden to factors beyond your control.
If you want to make money writing an app, you can go the Xamarin route. Even then, though, you’re at the mercy of the whims of a fickle population. Often an app is successful despite the fact that the app is a rehash of what can already be done (and better) elsewhere. Somehow the app became “cool”, though, and that’s all that counts.
As for writing serious software for business/personal productivity, you’re again at the mercy of strange factors. There is still a strong anti-Microsoft sentiment in the industry and that’s the primary reason why teams of developers undergo herculean efforts to get even the simplest application running in javascript. It doesn’t occur to these developers that if a customer purchases your software, then he has a vested interest in being able to install and run your software. There’s no need, then, to make it run in a browser! In almost every case, the browser is just going to be run on a PC, so why burden yourself with a junk language like javascript unless you’re just trying to stick it to Microsoft? Don’t get me wrong. Browser-based software has its purpose. When your customers are web users who aren’t directly purchasing your software, there’s less of a justification for installing software. Even then, though, I’d argue that the severe limitations of web-based development aren’t worth it. But then, I’ve been around long enough to remember when we used to laugh at the kinds of things that are acceptable practices today.
Let me finish, then, with advice contrary to what you’ve been hearing. Being a “polyglot” isn’t what it’s cracked up to be. Being “jack of all trades, master of none” is why we have so much bad software out there. If job satisfaction matters to you, then it’s OK to be an expert at fewer things. Though it seems many people are happy with serviceable junk, there are still people out there who will pay for quality.
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Wow, it seems a little negative...
I am a polyglot, but not a C# person (I dabbled, that is about it).
The future is moving away from PCs. Moving towards carrying and accessing everything from your phone.
The best move I made was to Android and having my gmail account linked. But I do 90% of my email from my PC still. I do 99% of my surfing on my PC. But that phone is handy when I travel, etc.
People want the information when and where they want it.
Also, the fact that they invest so much in their phones makes them question getting a PC. Which drives PC sales down. Which removes the development efforts, which removes the reasons for a PC, which drives the sales down.
Steve Jobs envisioned a small ubiquitous computer that people hardly noticed... Like the telephone.
What he missed (until decades later) was what he said. A small computer like a telephone that everyone would have with them. Custom to them.
This is driving the changes we see. Also, the next killer app... Well, it is big data, and it is here, and it runs on the servers. So the next big thing is making everything cloud based, which is happening.
So, back to the question about C# programming. Find a job that needs what you have to offer, and keep doing it better and better. My biggest complaint with most programmers with 5 years of experience is that they have 1 year of experience 5 times in a row. They don't grow.
I liked the days we called them Programmer/Analysts. Because if you are not solving the right problem, who cares. And if you don't solve the problem right, who cares. So the Analyst portion is important. Then the programming. Regardless of language. That's me. I love to solve the problems.
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C# can target the web platform by the use of javascript transpilers. For years I've used "Saltarelle" (now Bridge.NET) with discrete success. It's not like writing in JavaScript directly, but if your are religious about C# it's a good compromise.
Also it's a good chance to get used to HTML/CSS from a language/IDE you already know. In time it will become natural to migrate to TypeScript.
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TheOnlyRealTodd wrote: Is C# something I can realistically make cutting-edge applications with at this point?
Yes, but learning how to to write desktop apps now doesn't help your career any. Given your web background, I'd extend that to more platforms -- yes, Xamarin if you want to do C#.
TheOnlyRealTodd wrote: Xamarin is out of the question for me right now because Im on Windows 7 and the emulator I can use is too slow
You have a little less than a month to upgrade to Windows 10 for free. Do it and then learn Xamarin. I just did that myself last week for that exact reason.
TheOnlyRealTodd wrote: Are desktop apps dying or can I really still make some killer stuff with C#?
Yes. Why write something trapped to a specific platform when you can do it client/server and open up a whole host of potential or future functionality for the user? Even if you don't ship it client/server, architect it that way so you can break them apart later. You never know where you might want to take your desktop application in the future.
I'm a desktop C# guy whose starting to climb the learning curve on stack stuff. Don't head this direction, it leads to dinosaurs -- turn around and go back the way you came
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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Check how he applied human intelligence on a wooden box...
Homepage | Dilbert by Scott Adams[^]
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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I took some pictures during vivid Sydney light festival. An armature photographer's clicks.
Vivid Sydney 2016 - Album on Imgur[^]
Zen and the art of software maintenance : rm -rf *
Maths is like love : a simple idea but it can get complicated.
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Wow! Nice work there. I was ready to leave a snarky comment furthering the Sydney/Melbourne rivalry thing for a laugh, when I saw the shots of the second location. Breathtaking. 
Thanks for sharing 'em.
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virang_21 wrote: An armature photographer's clicks.
I can't believe you're an armature - you get some dynamoic images!
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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Don't wind people up!
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I just wanna watch the sparks fly!
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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Trawl through internet and setup my DSLR before going to event and did some adjustment while there. Picture quality is not as good as I expected but OK to share.
Zen and the art of software maintenance : rm -rf *
Maths is like love : a simple idea but it can get complicated.
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Wow the Opera House is such an impressive canvas, some of the aboriginal art on there looks amazing.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Aboriginal? Yeah, right! Just what the traveller's from the edge of Andromeda want you to think! 
I am not a number. I am a ... no, wait!
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So, you got a towel and lots of beers ready? Just in case?
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