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Thank you for sharing!

Your method (the Clifton Method of software implementation) is really impressive!

By the way, the last link you gave me is missing an "s" from the end. It should be:
https://github.com/cliftonm/clifton/blob/master/Clifton.Web/Clifton.WebServerService/WebServer.cs

Thank you again!

I use WCF services for json web services with Rest and a simplistic ODATA response syntax. WCF Services are very easy to create. Fast and feature rich. I put a separate service in each dll. One primary project that rolls them up.

Marc is right on to suggest you have layers and unit tests for each. You can use any database, by the way, not just EF with MS SQL.

For the front end, it is all html/css/JavaScript getting data via rest calls. Also, if you research the ODATA standard, you will see this is the way to go.

It is very easy to do. I find mixing front end and backend fine (ASP.NET MVC) but I prefer an architecture that does not mix them.

I prefer the simplicity of knockout over the massive angular frameworks, and as you are not big on a SPA, then I would recommend it. However, angular with a SPA does provide a very good experience, if bloated.

Architecture
[ UI ]-- [ JS MVVM ] -- [ JS Service layer (ajax) ] -- [WCF Message inspector ] -- [ WCF Service call] -- [ Command Manager ] -- [ Repository ]

I also follow this plan of attack

I won't dive in too deep. but with ASP.NET you're definitely not tied to SQL Server. It'll work with a ton of different SQL and NoSQL providers.

My preference is C#, ASP.NET and MVC. VS is getting a little out of hand, but VS Code will run on any major platform and .NET Core is platform independent. Lots and lots of work is being put into this and, give or take a few speed bumps while they sorted out v1.0, it all seems very, very solid.

cheers
Chris Maunder

Do you use MVC on this site Chris ?

We can’t stop here, this is bat country - Hunter S Thompson RIP

In parts. We're still moving over.

cheers
Chris Maunder

There's also Mono with Apache (mod_mono and XSP), which can run ASP.NET/MVC applications quite nicely, and doesn't have to be tied in to SQL Server (As Marc said, PostgreSQL is a very good database server, and has a LOT of plugins).

What do you get when you cross a joke with a rhetorical question?

The metaphorical solid rear-end expulsions have impacted the metaphorical motorized bladed rotating air movement mechanism.

Do questions with multiple question marks annoy you???

First let me swipe a mystery for you: .NET does not force the use of MS SQL!!!
Every decent SQL/NoSQL has connectors for every decent framework including .NET. And even in has no a native .NET connector, you can use ODBC or OLEDB too... So choosing database and framework are not related really...

I'm an old Microsoft web developer (not old in age but old in experience of almost 20 years)... Used to write web pages in Notepad...
The first step you have to do in becoming a language agnostic web developer is to embrace the idea of the separation. Do not think of your solution as a monolithic one, but pick the best solution for the DAL, the server and the client separately...
After all these years my basic solution for every size of web application is creating a DAL using C# (it has nothing to do with web development and this part of the code is reused almost for every one of my applications), creating a web service (I mostly use C# for this too, but also PHP had it chances) along some standard like REST (I mostly used the MVC pattern here and today I explore the ASP.NET Core to gain multi-platform), the last thing is the UI where the limit is the sky... There are endless libraries with their strength and weakness - you only have to pick your favorite... (I use jQuery for DOM, pure JS for code and a home made variant of bootstrap to visual)...

Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.

Again, choose a language based on the job at hand.
The Elm language is definitely a worthy contender for SPA.
Elixir (for backend), the Elm+Elixir combination will ensure high performance as well.

in my humble opinion...forget PHP and Python. Go for Java

I did Java a few years ago, scared to go back.

i cri evry tiem

You should give a second chance...Things have improved substantially..I find it extremly productive after the usual learning curve that everyone has to go trough.

Hi

My advice is don't tie yourself to one language but have a range you can choose from. Love or hate them I primarily use Microsoft tools. My language of choice is ASP.Net combined with jQuery, Javascript, and Bootstrap (or other web UI framework). There isn't any web application (SPA) or otherwise that I can't generate using those tools. I also use AngularJS, and MVC and even plan old HTML and CSS in a text editor.

(I have to say I am not a fan of SPA, nothing against them, just don't see the point. No I don't want to debate that)

Having been doing these web apps large and small apps for a while now I can get the best performance quite easily no matter what tools and technologies I use, and I've worked on some pretty big systems.

If you bear in mind that at the end of the day your browser pretty much expects a server to spill out HTML and perhaps a bit of Java, so the tools you use are almost irrelevant and your choice in how you want your server to spit out that HTML.

Try not to listen to the hype as its all your personal preference. Find a language and tools that achieves your objectives and go with that.

That said you might be swayed buy potential career opportunities. If you looking to build a career look at the job boards for the most popular tools. It will all change again in a few years anyway so just look to build on any experience you have

I see Java/PHP/Lamp etc requested all over the place, it's pretty popular for sure. I don't use any of that and have never been short of work.

There will always be debates on what is the best and its all nonsense. Most is subjective and personal preference and I stopped engaging in such debates years ago.

As a Java developer, I have to say that popularity [with clients] is not why I chose the environment (if it was, I'd still be using PHP), but because of the ecosystem of *useful* and *well written* libraries. From big frameworks like Spring MVC and Hibernate down to little utilities like OAuth clients and date handling utilities, just about anything you can need is there; just add a line to your maven config and it's downloaded and configured automatically. .NET is *almost* there these days, but doesn't have quite the slickness (NuGet lags a little in usability to maven, IMO) and there's a larger proportion of libraries that are buggy in my experience. But I'd suggest that anything *outside* of the CLR/JVM environment is taking a bit of a risk, because the farther you get away from these environments in which the majority of professional development is performed the more likely you are to find libraries and frameworks that are badly thought-out or are, frankly, badly-written.

I'd agree with that. I've been using .net long enough now to get around most problems in pretty much any libraries Nuget or not. Which I supposed goes to show that what ever route you take (as you say) pick and established technology

Hi

My advice is don't tie yourself to one language but have a range you can choose from. Love or hate them I primarily use Microsoft tools. My language of choice is ASP.Net combined with jQuery, Javascript, and Bootstrap (or other web UI framework). There isn't any web application (SPA) or otherwise that I can't generate using those tools. I also use AngularJS, and MVC and even plan old HTML and CSS in a text editor.

(I have to say I am not a fan of SPA, nothing against them, just don't see the point. No I don't want to debate that)

Having been doing these web apps large and small apps for a while now I can get the best performance quite easily no matter what tools and technologies I use, and I've worked on some pretty big systems.

If you bear in mind that at the end of the day your browser pretty much expects a server to spill out HTML and perhaps a bit of Java, so the tools you use are almost irrelevant and your choice in how you want your server to spit out that HTML.

Try not to listen to the hype as its all your personal preference. Find a language and tools that achieves your objectives and go with that.

That said you might be swayed buy potential career opportunities. If you looking to build a career look at the job boards for the most popular tools. It will all change again in a few years anyway so just look to build on any experience you have

I see Java/PHP/Lamp etc requested all over the place, it's pretty popular for sure. I don't use any of that and have never been short of work.

There will always be debates on what is the best and its all nonsense. Most is subjective and personal preference and I stopped engaging in such debates years ago.

The only time I've enjoyed doing web development was when I used the GoogleWebToolkit (GWT).

All in Java, easy to debug, no hassle with quirks from browsers, etc.
A dauting learning curve, yes, which also leaves you with the syndrom of the white page at first. But also very flexible.

Further suggestion, look into using a framework (Highly recommend MVP) to help you focus your design as GWT gives so much freedom that it's hard to know where to start when new to it.

You say you "primarily freelance". So you're writing apps/sites for your customers' benefit, not your own. The choice of language therefore should be (largely) driven by what's best for them. Taking into account development costs, hosting, licensing, maintainability, future-proofing and the availability of other developers to take over when/if you are no longer around.
Now given that most websites are actually not as different as the clients would have you believe, you can choose a set of core technologies that meet, to a greater or lesser degree, the clients' generic needs, and tweak as necessary on a case-by-case basis.
Of course that applies mainly to "green-field" developments, whereas in practice you will often be constrained by existing software, servers, interfaces, client tech knowledge etc.
What I do is offer a "menu" of tech that I'm comfortable with, and recommend options on a case-by-case basis. E.g. my offerings are based mainly around .Net on Windows, but am happy to go with whatever d/b is best (if any d/b required) for the situation. ASP.Net is definitely not dependent on SQL Server! If a solution that's not on my menu is best, I recommend the client go to someone else. (And usually pocket a finders' fee, thus "earning money" even from php, ruby, python etc).
All of the above is not to say that you don't need to keep a close eye on developments and trends - of course you do. Choose those that you can get up to speed with quickly and that offer your customers some tangible benefit over what you already know. And remember - whatever language you learn, you will never have learnt it all. Smile | :)

I am making the switch to PHP/Laravel with Bootstrap on the client side.

I am doing this because I have a lot more LAMP type servers, and I bemoan the pingdom requirement I keep finding inside of .Net applications that go "offline" with non-usuage and then take 30 seconds for the first page load.

I avoided the web stuff and focused on Client application development in windows. But those days are slipping by. Plenty of maintenance work, but everyone wants either apps or phone enabled pages, which I can't blame them.

I considered Node and played with it, but I was not sure I liked the big picture as the complexity skyrocketed (which it usually does). I feel that Laravel helps manage that complexity pretty well.

I also like the separation of the environment, so I can have different clients running different revisions of the various components, and have things still work. I like vagrant and the process of using a virtual machine to manage a lot of the environment specific stuff so I can migrate my laptop and just load the VM up and be back up and running without re-installing everything.

As always, YMMV. The final upside to something like PHP. There will always be PHP work, much like their will always be C# work...

Well you already did a good research....
I can tell you go for C#, why? well you can say that almost all the other languages are flavors of JS, ones with new syntax's that at the ends compile to JS (or Java), it's more like you are tying a new framework that a new language (ok, I'm not being to deep on this, but all those feels like JS). Then Microsoft will look more like a new language/approach will have more value.

With C# you can do a lot of good work in the BE and you then can compliment with all you already know about JS, or use the new approach and do any new Microsoft stuff.... also you can always use the old approaches and they will work.

But I agree with you, C# projects are not good for small webpages, but for that you already know the answer, use one of your already know templates and that will work. If your really learn how to do Wep Apps with C# you will acquire new knowledge and skills that are not possible with the other languages.

There are so many web development frameworks around, most of them are rubbish created for crappy programmers (if you see MVC keep away).
For scalability, Erlang with Yaws is probably the best, closely followed by nginx with LuaResty, and node.js with Express (but you need to be a good programmer as these are event based, not OO based).
For small sites PHP or python is OK without the OO crap.
Do not use Java or .Net based frameworks as these are rubbish at scaling, Statefull systems do not scale well (true web based development is ALL STATELESS).
A lot of developers are applying windows app based development to web development and end up in a mess.

Oh, good for you for taking to time to be objective. If you're doing this for personal work, I am and always will be a fan of PHP. It's A LOT less fuss than ASP.NET, and can be just as fast if done right. However, I think PHP's biggest advantage has less to do with PHP and more to do with it being natively developed for Linux/Unix, which will always make for a superior OS to Windows for servers.

There is a downside, I believe the learning curve is higher. Also, most PHP devs don't seem to be as professional. It's unfortunate, but that's just the way the cookie crumbles. However, once you understand PHP and Linux/Unix inside and out, you can do things like recompile a custom build in PHP and the OS kernel to really scale down and make things super fast, since anything you don't need is pulled right out of the engine on a binary level. This is impossible to do in Windows with ASP.NET.

I could go on and on, but for backend web dev, PHP is a pretty darn good way to make a web page, and do so on in a way that's OS agnostic. However, jobs in PHP don't tend to pay as much as the Microsoft world, but even still from a tech standpoint you can do more with it.

Jeremy Falcon

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