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W∴ Balboos wrote: I need to wait to be let go (and thus eligible for unemployment insurance)
I thought it was the case that if you're fired from your job, you can't collect unemployment. Firing you for poor performance is what your employer is threatening to do to you.
We can program with only 1's, but if all you've got are zeros, you've got nothing.
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Although I am a driver personality, I have to agree with you. Nobody should be driven like that.
Personally, I would have a closed door meeting, and explain where you are at, and what your thought process is, like you did here.
They will argue that they wont do this again, it is just this ONE last time, to save the queen.
They always do. And many believe it.
Meanwhile, keep your resume up to date, tighten the belt a little, and be prepared to be let go, or to walk.
It certainly is no longer a career, but a job, at this point.
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Remember - I'm not in this alone!
The whole department, or at least the developers, have been given the bullying attempt.
Certainly, at least two of us (perhaps with the tightest grip on the short hairs) could turn around and fart in their general direction as we leave.
But - a calm and reasonable meeting - with discussion rather than demands - is the way a grown up would have handled it. Remember, though, we're talking about management. The merit system for that job is based on . . . well that is a good question, isn't it?
Belt tightening? Fortunately, Mrs. Wife and myself are minimalists. We can just relax. Doing something I like to do and getting paid for it keeps me working. But - I've been considering the resume thing: if I want to do some teaching I'll need to recast it.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Which is why I suggest a sit down with management as the first option.
The problem is that management is clueless about IT and what it takes.
But regardless. The deadline will come to pass. With or without software ready.
The earlier the conversation, the better for everyone.
But there are risks.
I would bring 1-2 people in the meeting with you, not the entire team. But make sure
you can speak for the team.
Good Luck!
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Ultimately, not my place - there's a IT department director. A bunch of others. My part in this opus-magnum is, in a certain way, support: I make tools/interfaces to facilitate the implementation and make sure everything work as close to "no matter what" as possible. One or two others will be working with data, using my stuff to insert/edit/delete/display/etc. Architecture for all of this is something we (developers) come to agree on, together.
The real problem, I think, is that they need to be made to understand how much was done in the last few years and how much the company depends upon it.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Did they recently make a trip to India?
Might be the outsourcing promise hanging over your collective heads.
modified 20-Oct-19 21:02pm.
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They have been burned by that route, before.
There's some semi-internal Indian contractors, now - and not anyone I know is happy with their work.
They've even out-sourced 'Locally' and have gotten screwed.
However, for some people, the concept of a steep learning curve amounts to jumping off a cliff.
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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So these New Kids have deadlines. That's ok. Those are their deadlines. You can explain that that's just not how development/programming works; that you will, as always, do the best you can, but in the end, it will take as long as it takes.
Leave the decision of continued employment in their court.
On the other hand there is a great amount of satisfaction to be had by quitting an unsatisfying job. Such a relief.
I had a reasonable amount of savings, too, and decided to resign from an 18-year job because of some 'differences of opinion.' My budget is fine, but tighter than anticipated because of the rise of health insurance premiums.
Cheers,
Mark
Just another cog in the wheel
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Mark Starr wrote: Those are their deadlines
You Hit It Exactly.
However, because they're new kids with new powers, the second part will fall on deaf ears.
They'll do what they do just to show everyone they are doing something.
My previous employer thought they could hire someone better who could do in one year what it took me two years to do. Four years later, at times, paying two developers instead of just me, they had their new product - a few added bells and whistles, but cosmetically still using my design and probably the same under the hood, as well. And, in the interim, they needed me to create data conversion code which cost them $700 for a few hours work.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Yes, they will need to puff up and posture. But the point is to not accept or decline their demand. Simply acknowledge it, and make your position known. Don't draw lines or make demands/ultimatums. There is a burden they must bear if they decide to terminate your employment. Don't give a them a reason.
As for replacing you... It takes a long time for a new person to come in, learn the business, read all the code, and understand all the ins, outs, and nuances.
10 months now since I left my previous employer: they're asking for help. I've said I may be interested, and welcomed them to send their contractor-employment-policies and an offer. If I decide to abide by their policies, then I'll help dig them out of their hole. You can imagine the size of hole created when an original member of small team leaves.
It will go well, whichever way it goes.
Mark
Just another cog in the wheel
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While I completely agree with those who suggest that you need to start earnestly networking, resume-submitting, and interview-practicing, that doesn't mean your work here is done.
If I were interviewing you for a job and you told me about your current situation, I would want to hear all about what you did to resolve this situation ammicably.
These new leaders sound like fresh and idealistic newbies, but that doesn't mean that they are completely unreasonable. It's time to get into their brain and find out what motivates them. You're all part of the same team and you all want to "win"; you simply have different strategies. You need to find a tactful way of helping them to learn that their current strategy has some flaws that they might not have considered. Your job right now (if you truly value your company and the mission it stands for), is to win their hearts and earn their trust and let them know that you want THEM to succeed. THEN you will be in a position to help steer their thinking away from the precipice that they are now rapidly approaching. (And bonus points to you if you convince them that the course-recalculation was THEIR idea in the first place.)
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Quote: "Let us, then, be up and doing,
With a heart for any fate;
Still achieving, still pursuing,
Learn to labor and to wait."
--Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
It amazes me how often this stanza is appropriate.
I've read through a majority of the responses. It's interesting how bold some people's opinions can be when it is someone else's issue and their livelihoods aren't at stake.
I was in this very situation you describe in the late 1980's - some things never change.
Long story short, the company bought a competitor, fired 95% of the engineering department I worked in (about 35 hardware and software engineers) and kept a small handful (including me) AND the engineers from the purchased company.
I hung on for a few years but the constant stress of wondering and waiting for the other shoe to drop (i.e., they fire the rest of us) took its toll on me and I found another job through one of my friends who was let go. I do remember wishing they would have just fired me at the time they let all my friends go.
Fast forward to today. I'm going to be 60 in August. I've worked for the same company since 2004 without a single raise, while the executives get raises and bonuses every year; it's a public company so I get to look at the annual reports.
I've got some things out of them, like working from home, benefits, and supplying a mobile phone. These save me money. But I pay for all my infrastructure; computers, internet, books, courses... etc. much like a contractor.
I've been quietly applying and getting some interviews, but I have only once gotten past the phone interview stage. I've thoroughly downsized my resume to focus on skills and cull dates. No one has hired me. Ageism? High probability. Fact-o-life. For my salary needs they'll get 2 grads fresh and eager out of university who, with no family yet, will work long hours.
But I don't worry about it any more. I don't wring my hands. What will be will be. Even though inflation has reduced my effective salary by about 25% over the years, I suit up and show up and will continue to do so until they finally pull the plug.
I think you already know what you intend to do and you just needed to fish for ideas you hadn't considered. Fair enough.
Life's too short to stress over all the bovine excrement - something you cannot change.
Change the one thing you can, you're attitude.
Have: "A heart for any fate." Think: "Today is a good day to die." (The Klingons stole that from indigenous North American warriors, btw!)
Fear always accompanies a transition. Courage isn't the absence of fear, it's acting in the presence of it.
Best of luck to you.
Cheers,
Mike Fidler
"I intend to live forever - so far, so good." Steven Wright
"I almost had a psychic girlfriend but she left me before we met." Also Steven Wright
"I'm addicted to placebos. I could quit, but it wouldn't matter." Steven Wright yet again.
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MikeTheFid wrote: Change the one thing you can, you're attitude.
No need - I could/would jump ship if I didn't enjoy coding, especially with the small gestalt formed. As I noted in an earlier post, I could fart in their general direction*, and walk away.
MikeTheFid wrote: Think: "Today is a good day to die." (The Klingons stole that from indigenous North American warriors, btw!)
It may comfort you to know that I knew this was an American Indian quote. Attributions vary.
MikeTheFid wrote: Fear always accompanies a transition. Courage isn't the absence of fear, it's acting in the presence of it.
Hope for the best; expect the worst; and you'll never be disappointed. My thought have turned to what actions (bureaucratic) I should take to optimize my situation should the End of Days arrive. (E.g., a visit to SSA site as I need to know my substantial income years count; how much I'd get from unemployment insurance; which investments to liquidate first, and when, based upon income, should I need to dip in vs. IRA required withdrawal, and when, Etc).
And - as a grandfather, more time to remake the grand-kids in my image (snicker).
* From Monty Python and the Holy Grail
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I'd start looking for something new immediately. I left a company that was managed in the exact way that you are describing. I'm still friends with many of the developers and the madness continues with threats from upper management and consistent long hours to meet ever changing, unrealistic demands.
Pete McNamee
"True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing."
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You cannot stop clueless managers from being clueless. You and your whole company will, unfortunately, have to be content to be part of their education; that when you fire productive people, stuff stops getting done, and the clueless outsourced IT they purchase for more money than they paid you will not keep the lights on.
Five years from now, the new managers will be laughing off the failure of their last company with their ex-frat buddies, and going on to new things. But they probably won't make the same mistake again, sadly because there are so many fresh new mistakes they can make.
My advice, look for a new job, because you will inevitably be looking for a new job pretty soon, and it's great to get paid while you do it.
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As a manager I feel I would be committing career suicide if I had that attitude toward my staff. Any manager worth his salt knows they must work THROUGH the employee to get the task accomplished.
So these guys actually think if you miss the deadline THEY would be just as well off? They don't seem to understand now THEY are late if you don't succeed. That's some way of managing.
If all is as stated, I believe you have no real option but to take the abuse and accept that threat over your head (assume you are dead man walking) or find another job and use your notice period to take any PTO that won't be paid out.
During the exit interview, certainly thank that managers supervisor for giving you the motive that started you looking for a new job, and how well it all worked out. You're certainly going to tell all your former colleagues as well via LinkedIn how much the new company cares for its employees. All very polite and professional of course.
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You seem to have the gist of it. A few years ago, IT got new leadership, camaraderie was increased and product soared.
They seemed to have the look of fear in their eyes. I'm the wrong one to go to for any kind of deadline extraction as I supervise no one (and like it that way).
Those of us that are self-motivated will work to succeed - what they do and whenever they do it? A mystery.
A funny side benefit of doing ones job: one becomes ever more essential to the workings of the company. The more we did for the company the more they needed us. An offshoot of symbiosis, I suppose.
For me, it's end-game w.r.t. coding for others. I'll do it for me like I always did.
What preparation I am doing is grabbing whatever data I need, now, in case I loose access down the line.
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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If you make it, it'll only postpone the execution for 6 months.
Don't kill yourself trying to achieve it, work as normal and start applying for jobs.
Don't quit (unless you find another job). Employers like you to be already employed when you apply as it shows that you are employ_able_. Someone who has been out for 6+ months might mean bad luck or it might mean that you're trouble, and you have to undercut your competition to be given a chance.
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I was once serious about a career in programming (been programming as a hobbyist since my early teens which was so far in the past I used assembly, BASIC and machine code) and took a few courses, including at degree level, to give me a boost up and bring me up-to-date. I even started applying for jobs and generally did well (getting to the final round on several occasions to fall down in the end due to some small gap in my knowledge and/or experience) but I quickly lost interest when I saw what was on offer, in particular the working conditions and the somewhat 'psychopathic' methods used for recruitment. However, I do code as a small but interesting part of my current job as a self-employed academic and I have no regrets about deciding against a programming career. Coding increases my current earning potential and job satisfaction. My point is: there are more ways to enjoy coding then a '24/7' job.
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My world, the opposite: Programming is just something I fell into because it was fun and it seems I've some degree of aptitude for it. With time, it blended in well with my then vocation. Circumstances were such that it was necessary to do it deliberately for money. That, by the way, is a true "Wooo-hoo!".
As far as it goes, I've all but continuously been paid to do stuff I love to do. So it will remain, and should my programming days here, conclude, then I might concentrate on photography - for which I never seem to have a fraction of the time I want - and will do as I did in the past; programming for fun (instead of profit), perhaps teaching (chemistry? coding? photography? some new-found fun?). Some time to exercise, as well.
And there's the book I wanted to write - who cares if it's ever published?
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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You're supposed to publish the final version of Visual Studio 2017 today. It is already 7:30 on the East Coast and I cannot find it anywhere. Don't keep me in suspense. You won't like me if you keep me waiting! 
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
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Cornelius Henning wrote: You won't like me if you keep me waiting!
You're assuming we like you otherwise? 
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Like little ole me? Of course you do! What's not to like about me? (Don't answer that!)
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
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12 minutes earlier I got an email to download it - it is still gets 404 
[UPDATE]
Tried MSDN download - not responding at all...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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Also got that one ... thought it was a targeted phishing attack for few moments
modified 19-Nov-18 21:01pm.
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