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"WinForms". It works. Predictable. No Javascript-dependencies.
Just saying, if you need a grunt that gets results you can hire me. I don't know Gulp, just delivering results; and I determine what is right, not the client.
And yes; I was that idiot you saw at that show. If we meet again, I pay for a vegan beer.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: if you need a grunt that gets results
I said Webpack, not Grunt: The JavaScript Task Runner[^] 
WinForms is hardly a good choice these days.
Its age is really beginning to show.
Don't get me wrong, I love WinForms (well, most of it, the DataGridView kind of ruins it).
I have it running at one customer, but they need support for Google Maps.
The previous programmer got it working using the WebBrowser control, but that uses IE and is no longer supported.
I was able to migrate to some Chromium based control, but developing and debugging it is still a pain.
Some things really are simpler in a web app.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: And yes; I was that idiot you saw at that show.
I haven't seen any shows lately, but I already figured you were an idiot 
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One of the reasons I have such disdain for npm, webpack, and all the other aspects of the web-sphere, is exactly many of the issues you've mentioned - absurd amounts of dependencies, lack of "how to" documentation, and so forth. And forget getting all that tooling to work in Visual Studio, my favorite IDE / debugger tool. Visual Code sucks - it keeps changing with every new release, and I'm sick of that and the half-assed plugins that only half work.
I've come to love web development, but only in the context of, don't use anything someone else wrote unless absolutely necessary. So I have a very small suite of third party libraries I use:
sometimes Bootstrap
sometimes jqWidgets
never jQuery (except that the above to require it)
no third party "MV[x]" framework
no "pollute my HTML with declarative code" engines, so no Angular, no Vue, no shyte.
um, nothing else really.
and everything is coded in TypeScript, and I can debug happily either in the Chrome console or right in Visual Studio.
As usual, I rebel. I am not a lemming. I will not leap of the cliff that everyone else appears to be leaping off of.
And OMG, "eval"??? 
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We seem to come from rather different worlds, but this is one reason I write pure C++ with as few dependencies on other things as possible. I like most of the STL, but there's a lot of shite out there.
I even have a black Stetson, a going-away present from a former team. Hi y'all if any of you are reading this. Some of them still work on the product almost 20 years later.
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I'm partial to QT because it supplies OS level primitives remaining mostly cross-platform if the project is developed well. Otherwise, as little external dependencies as strictly necessary.
GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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Phew.. Blazor WebAssembly arrived just in time to save us! 
Better yet, some of the Blazor work is retrofitted in WinUI as MVA, exciting time! 
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Saw that in the Build presentations. The creator of DNN has already jumped on board with a Blazor framework named oqtane. Looked at it but didn't bite. Seems like it is not quite ready for prime time, maybe close.
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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I'll wait for that stuff to mature a bit before I use it in production code 
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You're such a web, javascript puddle, html 5, css, jquery, react, vue lover!
Me, I'll jump right into it!
I resisted doing web dev as much as I could... But the wave finally caught me anyway 
I see Blazor as my savior! Finally a beautiful and sensible and performant technology! Nobody will stop me using it!
Actually.. I should start investigating now how easy it is to sneak in some Blazor tech into an existing website...  
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Super Lloyd wrote: Me, I'll jump right into it!
You're such an incompatible browser, breaking API changes, undocumented APIs, no Google results lover! 
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Sander Rossel wrote: I'll wait for that stuff to mature a bit before I use it in production code
In the entire history of web development you may be the first person to have ever said this!
If you can't laugh at yourself - ask me and I will do it for you.
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Configuring webpack and getting things into the right places does take a lot of research and time. I've accomplish some (if not all) of the things you wish to accomplish with webpack. Here is a link to a project that you can clone and npm run start.
Then sample project includes a already set up webpack project that generates src and minified files. It also includes hot reloading.
If you're interested, here is the project.
GitHub - Zhunio/ts-lib[^]
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Sounds like material for an article
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Thanks, appreciated!
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This sort of cr@p is one of the reasons why I never got into Web programming.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Ignorance is bliss 
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I don't like web development - you are not in control , when I'm forced into working on a web project I write everything myself wherever possible - no frameworks, no f*****g Entity Framework, no ORM, NO nothing , it's reinvent the wheel at every step - which is probably why I'm kept away from such things
"We can't stop here - this is bat country" - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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When I moved over from C => C++ => web development, I made it a point not to use any of those "frameworks". In fact, I determined to keep the dependence upon the ephemera, i.e., the coming and going latest-and-greatest platforms far away from my work. Maybe a leftover attitude from my 'C' days.
So I use HTML,CSS,PHP, and JavaScript. Period.
And I can have a lot of fun doing it.
New things don't break old things. Setup's a breezed: mainly my working directories and how I like to color-code my text in the editor. Autocomplete is neat - better, generally, then what spell checkers do to me.
Is this a spartan life, or, have I broken through the surface and can breathe clean fresh air? Maybe just a version of cord-cutting.
You've dug a pit and accessorized it. But, no matter how much you pad and decorate the wall, it's still a pit. Climb out. Shove all the platform dirt in like a cat burying its sh*t - and start doing things right. And feel good about it!
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: HTML,CSS,PHP, and JavaScript
W∴ Balboos, GHB wrote: Is this a spartan life
With those technologies, by definition!
I use SCSS to ease the pain of CSS, the biggest technological turd ever dropped.
Unfortunately, that requires me to use something to transpile to CSS, a pain, but not nearly as painful as CSS.
In fact, to come back to the other discussion, the fact that CSS exists proves that there is no God, only evil!
Seriously, Crystal Reports is the holy grail of tech compared to CSS 
You're (partly) right though.
I'm now trying to add TinyMCE WYSIWYG editor to my project and it's just pain and frustration with Webpack.
I can't get it to work, even when following the official documentation.
One line of HTML script with CDN and it works great.
Download it for a local fallback and I'm good to go.
Maybe I'll just use Webpack to transpile the SCSS and bundle my own scripts and to copy some stuff from node_modules to wwwroot and then I'll just keep it at that
It really makes you wonder if there really isn't anything better the front-end world has to offer
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Sander Rossel wrote: It really makes you wonder if there really isn't anything better the front-end world has to offer
That is the question that propagated all of this framework nonsense in the first place. Everyone wants the next bigger and better thing and it leads to a massive snowball careening down a cliff.
"They have a consciousness, they have a life, they have a soul! Damn you! Let the rabbits wear glasses! Save our brothers! Can I get an amen?"
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Many years ago I created my personalweb-page using HTML. That's it. Not even any CSS.
A little later I added some CSS.
I have managed to keep that landing page clean HTML/CSS since then and it is so easy to maintain and update when I want to. It works on all browsers the same, no problems with incompatible libraries, frameworks or add-ons because there aren't any.
I was tempted to "upgrade" it recently but managed to resist the impulse - and i 'm very happy with it.
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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That's going to be difficult for any web app.
You'll need at least some JavaScript.
And if you're doing vanilla JS with lots of dynamic content, you'll beed A LOT of it and it won't be pretty
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