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raddevus wrote: Exactly! Thanks for your post. I really appreciate it.
Any time man.
raddevus wrote: Often people just take the surface answer and run with it.
I've learned the hard way the vast, vast majority of people can't see past the surface. Usually, their entire existence is nothing but external stimuli telling them how to think. Then there are those who think they don't do that, but still do. 
raddevus wrote: In this case eveyrone is just saying "Oh, it's a prevalent thing now." Ok, in the last 2 weeks?
Seems like a case of change for change's sake. Not out of improvement, but out of boredom. Can't get girlfriend. Won't go outside. Hmmm.... I know... let's add a friggin div MFer! 
raddevus wrote: They applied the optional treatment with great success with no need to open up the patient!
Good for her. IMO that surgeon is unethical, and I doubt he's the only one like that. I bet if it was his body he'd think twice.
raddevus wrote: Oh, sorry, Modern-Social-Media-Consumer, does that require thinking on your part?
Most people never think. They're just streams of consciousness at best (being nice here). Then there are those who think they think, pretend they think, etc. Both of these crowds will violently defend not thinking. Not kidding. Only a very small percentage of people actually think.. very, very small.
Jeremy Falcon
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Delayed reply.
Windows version:
Working on updates 3%
Don't turn off your PC. This will take awhile.
Your PC may restart several times.
>64
It’s weird being the same age as old people. Live every day like it is your last; one day, it will be.
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What do you think?
And, even though I am an astrophysicist by profession, I am not an expert on the Solar System, so don't ask me...
However, I speculate that it actually was an alien starship. I think aliens are out there. And I think they used the Sun as a "gravity assist" vs. the center of the Galaxy, and that there were life forms on ‘Oumuamua. I agree with Harvard professor, Avi Loeb[^] when he speculated that ‘Oumuamua is, indeed, an alien starship.
I mean, what else could it be? I don't believe that it is just a rock that farted Hydrogen gas[^].
And, yes, there is some debate as to whether we should capitalize the world Hydrogen. I am of the religious persuasion that we should capitalize the names of chemical elements 
I doubt we will know the 'absolute truth' for sure. Not until we can be like in Rondezvous with Rama by Arthur C. Clarke[^] and actually launch a spacecraft quickly (i.e., on-the-fly) from Earth and rendezvous with it.
I wonder, if there really were aliens aboard ‘Oumuamua, they were sapient, intelligent, and conscious, and if, say, we were able to quickly and on-the-fly try to rendezvous with it, would they just see our spacecraft approaching them and either (a) accelerate to warp / hyperspace to escape us, (b) let us chase them until we exhausted our fuel, (c) fire on us with their weapons, or (d) open hailing frequencies? In the case of (d), would we be able to understand each other? Or would they have to send Interlac[^] or Linguacode[^]?
I think any civilization that can construct something like ‘Oumuamua would shoot first and ask questions later if they saw a strange ship approaching. Or they would jump to warp to try and escape.
Anyone know if ‘Oumuamua has been tracked, e.g., back to where it came from, or if we can look at it with Hubble/James Web to try and catch if the aliens, say, enter hyperspace upon leaving the Sol System?
Or perhaps is it a derelict, as in, it used to be a powered starship but now it is a dead husk, tumbling through space because it is a victim of some faraway interstellar battle? Also a likely explanation, in my opinion. Pure speculation on my part, though.
I love to just sit and make up fantasies about this kind of stuff. I wish we could know for certain whether aliens are out there, and I wish we could have the technology of casual interstellar travel[^] so we could go exploring.
Regards,
Brian Hart
modified 14-May-24 17:29pm.
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Why go to outer space for aliens?
As an Indian citizen entering the US, the immigration form at airport categorises me as an alien.
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Amarnath S wrote: immigration form at airport categorises me as an alien.
You should arrive without your passport. You'll then be upgraded to undocumented. 
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Daniel Pfeffer wrote: You'll then be upgraded to undocumented.
That's only if he promises to vote a certain way. Otherwise, he'll be deported.
The difficult we do right away...
...the impossible takes slightly longer.
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My perspective was solidified when I learned about the Drake equation.
Given the sheer vastness of space, I'm inclined to believe it's inconceivable we're alone in the universe.
But at the same time, because of its vastness, I find it highly unlikely any civilization could ever construct some apparatus that could survive the harsh conditions of interstellar travel. And then could be found by intelligent life. And then have it recognized for what it is.
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We already know that none of the terms of the Drake Equation can be zero because we exist.
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obermd wrote: none of the terms of the Drake Equation can be zero because we exist.
Right, that's why I don't need any convincing that other civilizations exist.
What I was bringing up was contact probabilities. So the Drake equation still brings value to the discussion IMO.
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I just got done typing something very similar before reading your post. 
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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In my mind, the Drake equation is just an hypothesis. It's not meant to be a description of the way the Universe actually works.
I firmly believe in (and this is purely subjective on my part), "Where there's a will, there's a way." And in, "100 experiments can prove my theories true, but it only takes one counterexample to prove them wrong." I'm inclined to both believe it is inconceivable that we're alone in the universe and I am also inclined to take the Drake equation with a grain of salt. Just because Drake (whoever he was) wanted to be a poo-poo head and rain on everybody's parade, should not mean we should discount empirical evidence that may contradict it, when such evidence is found.
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Brian C Hart wrote: In my mind, the Drake equation is just an hypothesis. It's not meant to be a description of the way the Universe actually works.
Sure, it's little more than a thought experiment, that lets you play around plugging in wildly varying numbers and see how they affect the outcome.
Garbage in, garbage out.
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Quote: I think they used the Sun as a "gravity assist"
To travel between solar systems takes light many many years. The technology to do that for a ship, I think, would be way ahead of having to use something as archaic as Gravity Assist.
So alien life. I think that would be more of a case of wishful thinking. 
A Fine is a Tax for doing something wrong
A Tax is a Fine for doing something good.
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I disagree. The use of the Sun's gravity can not only be used for speeding up / slowing down relative to the Galactic center, but also for a course-correction (i.e., to get the ship pointing in a substantially different new direction without the use of too much fuel).
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Extraordinary assertions require extraordinary proof.
To date I have seen no convincing proof that ‘Oumuamua is anything but what it seems to be - a chunk of interstellar rock that happened to pass through our Solar System. I would be very interested in seeing incontrovertible evidence otherwise.
(And no, a Hydrogen "fart" as it left the Solar System is not incontrovertible evidence)
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Just because we ourselves have not learned enough about the physics of how the Universe works in order to invent a means of casual interstellar travel does not mean some mind elsewhere in the Universe hasn't thought it up.
I speculate that the astrnomers who talk about Rama (oops I mean, 'Omuamua) farting Hydrogen gas stretch to find mundane explanations for actual alien starship behavior due to their refusal to believe that life exists elsewhere in the universe, or that just because we haven't come up with technology to conveniently cross interstellar distances doesn't mean that some other brain out there in the universe has not discovered such a method, and we are merely ignorant of how the Universe works to a degree that we cannot conceive of anything.
There is such a thing as "falsification bias," where people who strongly disbelieve a certain preposition will work tirelessly to prove it false -- which is a GOOD thing, don't get me wrong! But sometimes I think people work too hard to so, when obvious evidence in support of a theory is staring them straight in the face.
The opposite of confirmation bias could be considered as "disconfirmation bias" or "falsification bias." This describes a tendency to seek out evidence that contradicts one's preconceived notions or beliefs, rather than selectively interpreting information that supports them. In your example, if someone harbors a strong disbelief in the possibility of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe and actively seeks out evidence that disproves this notion, they may be exhibiting disconfirmation bias. This bias could lead them to discount or ignore data that suggests the existence of intelligent extraterrestrial life or the feasibility of interstellar travel.
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Brian C Hart wrote: Just because we ourselves have not learned enough about the physics of how the Universe works in order to invent a means of casual interstellar travel does not mean some mind elsewhere in the Universe hasn't thought it up.
True.
Throughout history, what was considered an "acceptable hypothesis" has changed. At one time, it was acceptable to claim that one's cake didn't rise because the neighbour's wife (a witch) put the "evil eye" on the cake. Today, such a hypothesis is unacceptable. An acceptable hypothesis would be forgetting one of the ingredients, or setting the oven to the wrong temperature.
While technological civilisations almost certainly exist elsewhere in the Universe, the evidence for their existence is such that I do not believe that "it's aliens" is currently an acceptable hypothesis. Were evidence to be found of the existence of aliens (signals, a Bussard ramjet, a Dyson sphere, a Ringworld ), I would reevaluate.
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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I'll take Occams Razor for 100, please. A starship is far more complex than a rock.
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Wasn't Rendezvous with Rama by Arthur C. Clarke?
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Yes, and Ringworld was Larry Niven.
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I got the two mixed up
My OP was fixed.
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I've always figured we're not the only ones beholden to Einstein's cage.
I'm no physicist, much less an astrophysicist, but bear with me anyway.
I don't know if you are familiar with Caballero's prediction that there are 4 hostile alien civilizations within our solar system. There may be 4 evil alien civilizations in the galaxy | Space[^]
It's not hard and fast here, but based on his work, I think it's more than likely that there's at least one, if any of it even remotely holds.
Why haven't we seen them in any way that can be verified? So far it's all Loch Ness style photographs and conspiracy theories. Nothing of substance.
Maybe we're just not that interesting, but we do have one of the few habitable planets in the region. That should at least attract an invasive alien species, if nobody else.
Plus we light up space with everything from radio to laser transmissions.
Here's what I think. There mostly likely is life out there. And we'll most likely never contact it. Nor they us. Because of Einstein's cage. If there's a workaround, nobody has found it.
My $0.02.
I'd love to hear your thoughts about that.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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honey the codewitch wrote: Caballero's prediction that there are 4 hostile alien civilizations within our solar system. There may be 4 evil alien civilizations in the galaxy | Space[^]
You (not Caballero) confused Solar System and Milky Way. The Solar System consists of our Sun, its planets, dwarf planets, asteroids, comets, and what-have-you. The Milky Way contains approximately 100 billion stars.
Just a few reasons off the top of my head why we have not detected any other technological species around other stars (or life, for that matter):
- The Sun is one of the oldest Population III stars (containing large amounts of heavy elements) in our part of space. Given that much of our early technology relied on heavy elements, and assuming that is true of all early technology, it is possible that we are the oldest (and so far, the only) technological species in our part of the galaxy.
- We have been sending electromagnetic radiation out for only a short period, and even now are increasing the efficiency of our usage - beams vs broadcasts, etc. It could be that other technological species have gone even further along this route, and it is therefore almost impossible to "eavesdrop" upon them.
- A species that has invasive tendencies doesn't survive long enough to become an interstellar civilisation. If it does, it doesn't survive long enough to complete an interstellar voyage (at sub-light speeds).
- The economics of interstellar voyages make it impractical, even for dedicated explorers. No sane species will fund a voyage whose payoff (if ever) will come centuries in the future.
Reasons 3 & 4 would not apply if a practical superluminal warp drive were invented.
As for discovery of non-technological life in other star systems, we can just barely detect planets around other stars, and can analyze their atmospheres only in special cases. I submit that our technology is not quite good enough to detect life on extra-Solar planets (though it will be in the next few decades).
Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows.
-- 6079 Smith W.
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Daniel Pfeffer wrote: You (not Caballero) confused Solar System and Milky Way
I was going from my memory, which is often unreliable.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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