|
CodeProject wants to help women get involved and build careers in programming. What can we do? We asked some prominent female programmers, and this is what we learned. What we learned about getting more women involved in programming.
|
|
|
|
|
Terrence Dorsey wrote: getting more women
I'm all for it. Where do I sign up? ![Badger | [badger,badger,badger,badger...]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/badger.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks for a textbook illustration of why we have a lot of work to do.
Director of Content Development, The Code Project
|
|
|
|
|
|
One way to be successful is to see how something similar was done in the past. I wonder what industries in the past were lacking women and how the balance was shifted.
|
|
|
|
|
Good point. In fact, that will bring us to an odd conclusion.
In South East Asia there are a lot of women working in construction, roads, railroads. Those are typical 'male jobs' according to western standards. Ironically, nobody is complaining about those jobs having too few women candidates...
Apart from exposing an underlying hypocrisy in the entire story of equal opportunity, it also teaches us that how people fill in gender roles is largely determined by how culture defines those roles.
So, if we want more women in IT, we need to change our culture. Sounds easy, right? 
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Terrence Dorsey wrote: CodeProject wants to help <layer>women get involved and build careers in programming
Is there anything that prevents women getting involved? I mean why do you think they'd need help? If they wanted to program they would do... If I wanted to start a career in whatever job which, in vast majority, is held by women I don't think I would need specific help. I'll simply go for it.
Seulement, dans certains cas, n'est-ce pas, on n'entend guère que ce qu'on désire entendre et ce qui vous arrange le mieux... [^]
|
|
|
|
|
Given that the IT industry is still inherently misogynistic, I can fully understand why women steer clear. My wife used to be a developer, until she left the industry because of the sexism she encountered at the companies she worked at.
Look at how some of the women who have spent time here on CP, eventually left in disgust at the patronising and sexist way they were treated. We lost Trollslayer and Annie MacDonald in the same week, and I, for one, feel the boards are a poorer place for their loss.
|
|
|
|
|
My wife used to be a dev as well and she's still in the IT industry. She never had to suffer from sexism and she often says she rather likes working with a bunch of men than a bunch of women.
I am not saying she had never heard a joke you could consider 'mysogin' but nothing she did not consider as a joke. Like english and french would tease each others when they meet. Nothing which denies respect.
Now the fact you understand why women steel clear does not tell why they would need help... Reading you it's more likely that men needs help.
Seulement, dans certains cas, n'est-ce pas, on n'entend guère que ce qu'on désire entendre et ce qui vous arrange le mieux... [^]
|
|
|
|
|
Guirec Le Bars wrote: Reading you it's more likely that men needs help
Exactly.
|
|
|
|
|
I'm glad your wife hasn't been affected by this. But just because you don't think barriers exist doesn't mean they don't exist. I spent much of the past year following issues around women in tech and talking to women about their experiences. Not everyone runs into horrible behavior, but the vast majority do.
Here's some good reading from women speaking out about what they encounter in the industry. Nobody should have to put up with this.
Feed Courage, not Fear [^]
Gender Bias 101 For Mathematicians[^]
That's just the top of my list. I have many more.
To be fair, this isn't just an issue with the tech industry, nor is it just about women. There are also problems with underrepresentation and barriers to entry based on race and socioeconomic status. In theory, tech (particularly programming) is equal opportunity. The reality is different.
How White Male Tech Writers Feed the Silicon Valley Myth of Meritocracy[^]
These are societal issues. We can't fix society. We can try to make positive change in our corner of it, however.
Director of Content Development, The Code Project
|
|
|
|
|
Terrence Dorsey wrote: But just because you don't think barriers exist doesn't mean they don't exist
Dear Terrence,
It is very kind of you establishing what I think or not but I assure you I can do that pretty much by myself and if you don't mind I'd rather do.
Terrence Dorsey wrote: I spent much of the past year following issues around women in tech and talking to women about their experiences. Not everyone runs into horrible behavior, but the vast majority do.
I have not spent much of the year following issues around women in tech but I have been working in tech for the last 20 years in 3 countries over 2 continents and do not make any sense of this “vast majority”. I have always been working with women and still do. My actual team is composed of 7 males and 5 females and there is no misogynism or whatsoever. Do you have any figures for this 'vast majority' ?
That said I read your article and it properly spots the so-called 'issues'. I can paraphrase the following way without, I guess, changing your statements:
1. Most women are simply not interested by the coding activity. Thus they don't enter IT study.... Most woman, just like most men out of the IT sector would perceive us, developers, as laboratory rats or martians (take a 2nd look at CP logo and you'll see that yourselves at CP are promoting that image) or whatever but nothing cool, fancy or girly.
2. Women who had embrace the coding activity would not transition from junior to senior: based on my personnal experience I think that is mostly true. Most of the female developers I met have transitioned to BA or PM roles. They are still working in the IT field, with the same guys they were working when they were devs, but they wanted that change for reasons of theirs. They wanted that change and they got it. They were not looking forward to senior dev positions at all. They just found themselves more comfortable following a slightly different path (just like many men do).
3. Your article properly demonstrate that women who want to work in IT can. They don't need help. They are establishing associations of their own, have their projects set up as men do and have as much success if not more.
Now let me send you some links as well where you can see that misogynism is not the issue. The issue is the self-representation that people make from IT that prevents women to consider the career path. And that’s truer in the US than anywhere else.
http://onlinewomeninpolitics.org/sourcebook_files/Ref5/Gender,%20Information%20Technology,%20and%20Developing%20Countries-%20An%20Analytic%20Study.pdf[^]
http://test.scripts.psu.edu/users/g/m/gms/cis/old-cis/oldwebiste/05/eileentrauth/Publications/Understanding%20the%20Under%20Representation%20of%20Women%20in%20IT.pdf[^]
You want more women in development? Then try to change the image of the industry and you can probably start by an honest reflection on how attractive your website is for women. Don't get me wrong: I like CP very much! But rather for its content that for the image it gives of a developer...
Now you can enlarge the debate to religion, racism, etc… and then I fully agree with you : these are socio-cultural issues which are not specifics of the IT industry : there are stupid people everywhere, in every domain but whatever you do you won’t change them... As French people says: “Il n’y a que les cons qui ne changent pas d’avis” that you can translate by something, more politically correct, like: « only dumbs do not change their mind »
Guirec
Seulement, dans certains cas, n'est-ce pas, on n'entend guère que ce qu'on désire entendre et ce qui vous arrange le mieux... [^]
|
|
|
|
|
Quote: I can paraphrase the following way without, I guess, changing your statements:
Sorry Guirec. I think you've completely misunderstood what I wrote. Best of luck in your endeavors.
Director of Content Development, The Code Project
|
|
|
|
|
The vast majority of women developers that I've known were originally from India, China, or another Asian country, where it's normal to drive women towards an engineering career path. In America, the tradition is to make starting a career in software development painful so that people get driven away (men and women alike), and only people who learn to enjoy programming on their own end up still in that career path.
My wife got a degree in psychology and started a career in social work because that's what felt right to her when she was just starting college; in America, people do what feels right. I don't think you're going to change that kind of culture overnight.
|
|
|
|
|
General 
News 
Suggestion 
Question 
Bug 
Answer 
Joke 
Praise 
Rant 
Admin 
Submit an article or tip
