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"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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thought I was going to fail
In a closed society where everybody's guilty, the only crime is getting caught. In a world of thieves, the only final sin is stupidity. - Hunter S Thompson - RIP
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Anyone remember the sockets layer from C and C++?
Seriously, the fact that someone actually designed them the way that they did, and it made its way through a standards committee just floors me. The blocking stuff is fine, but the non blocking stuff is incomprehensible, at least last time I looked at it.
It's absolutely the worst asynchronous API I've ever encountered.
I'm about ready to use them in blocking mode on a spawned thread just to avoid it, but the MCU doesn't have a lot of resources and threads are relatively expensive. 
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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I'd be curious to hear more specifically what is wrong about the asynchronous socket API. What is the incomprehensible part.
Communication is, in its very nature, asynchronous. So an asynchronous socket API should be the natural way to do it. Synchronous communication is a straitjacket; you can't work or think freely if you have to force yourself into a synchronous framework for communication.
Religious freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make five.
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IBM Documentation[^]
It's anything but natural.
Adding, I took a liberty here. I'm using non-blocking and asynchronous interchangeably, but they may not always be in every context.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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And here I am, complaining about non-well-formed CSV files... 
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I can't be the only one that occasionally runs into a situation where I need to produce an awful lot of code before I can test any of it, because it's all interdependent. This often happens when I'm integrating something to an external API that itself is rather complicated, but it can come up in other situations as well. My SVG renderer for example - there are just so many moving interlocking parts that you're standing on a mountain of code before you even get to proof of life.
So if you've ever been in that situation, I imagine you hate it as much as I do.
It's stressful to me. I do not like coding a house of cards, and then having to go back and verify it after the fact. It feels shady. How do you deal with it?
Some kind of process management?
Some clever form of testing I'm not familiar with?
Tai chi?
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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honey the codewitch wrote: I can't be the only one that occasionally runs into a situation where I need to produce an awful lot of code before I can test any of it
Rarely, but it's a PITA and I get pretty stressed. Usually for nothing but occasionally it proves to be a can of worms and I have to go back and try to debug the code, which causes more frustration until I get to the point where I post a stupid question here on CP that makes no sense to anyone but me then I get away from it for a while and behold I figure it out.
If you can't find time to do it right the first time, how are you going to find time to do it again?
PartsBin an Electronics Part Organizer - Release Version 1.4.0 (Many new features) JaxCoder.com
Latest Article: EventAggregator
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Okay, so basically same as me.  
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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Completely abstract and perhaps not appropriate for your context: The first thought I have is to abstract with immutable objects. But maybe I'm only simply crazy
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I'm trying to wrap my head around how that would work in my present situation, and nope. I am not clever enough to figure out how that would help me.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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I'm pretty sure you are clever enough to solve it finally 
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It's my usual way of working, whether coding something big from scratch or making a large change. The benefit is not having to plan stable waypoints that can be tested, which typically involves developing some code that will later disappear. The drawback is anticipating [blecch] several lengthy debug sessions when the code is done.
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I don't have a debugger, so the debug sessions are .. interesting.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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Hmm, I feel your pain. Complex code, varied data related interactions and no debugger.
In the past, I have integrated a logging function into the code. Usually as a compile time option so I don't have to dismantle it by hand (which I have had to do in the past when compile time options were not available). Usually start with simple module enter/exit logs and then progress to adding inputs and outputs and interesting working variables as the testing progresses. Had to make sure the log function opened, wrote log message and closed the log file to ensure the integrity of the log file should the application die rather than simply producing nonsense output.
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Ah. I'd forgotten what platform you were currently working on. I'd be tempted to write a simple debugger in that case, assuming that there's even a breakpoint instruction and enough memory. If not possible, my way of working would need a reset!
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You can actually connect to some of these widgets using JTAG and debug them but it's so slow it's really not worth it.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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honey the codewitch wrote: Some kind of process management?
Yes, with time you get used to it. The stress I mean not the situation itself 
If you've ever been mountaineering, it's a bit like descending on unstable pebble stones: you need concentration, speed and skill. When you do it right and you descend in one piece it's very rewarding. If not, it's very painful.
Personally, having done it quite a few times, I don't mind it that much. What I find more annoying is having to tie up all the loose ends that remain behind. After all the high jinks, the mundane cleanup seems dreary but I'm a professional and I know it has to be done.
Mircea
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Preamble
I want to discuss this with you, but I feel like my sentences are going to come out judgy at first since it may sound as if I'm saying that "oh, why don't you just do this?" kind of thing.
So, before I begin discussing this:
1. I want to submit that I too have experienced the kind of thing you are talking about.
2. I'm very interested in solutions that would resolve "producing a mountain of code before you can see it run".
2a. Is there actually a way to resolve the issue of "producing a mountain of code before being able to see it run"? Or, is it just impossible in some cases?
3. I see that you often work "down at the metal" and it may just not be possible to do things in certain languages (assembly). I don't know.
The Discussion
Now, allow me to say some things as I imagine someone saying them to me when I say I'm producing a pile of code that cannot be run until it is all complete.
1. Isn't this exactly what OOP was supposed to do? My phrasing -> Create blackboxes which have a small(est possible) interface (not ui & not Interface (pure abstract class) which is made up of the smallest set of public functions that can provide the behaviors of the Thing (object).
2. This idea is that the complex (mountain of code) is hidden in a black box that very few need to know about. The only way to get to the black box is to use its behaviors via public functions.
Example
I need to draw a rectangle on the screen.
All I need to know is one method
DrawRectangle(Point startPoint, int width, int height)
3. Now, as a developer who is creating the DrawRectangle I can just tell the Users of the DrawRectangle "you will pass in a Point and two integers and it will draw the rectangle.
4. Instead of immediately giving them the working code (mount of code) I tell them, call it with that and it'll simply print to a log file ("I drew your square at point, with width x and height y")
5. Now imagine if you Modeled all of the things in your system and you knew all of their behaviors and you only stubbed out their behaviors? If you really did this, then you could build and run the entire system to see the interactions between the things and see behaviors running at the appropriate times but all it would be doing is logging to a file.
This could mean -- and I'm not sure it is entirely possible -- that you could have the interface & interactions complete and then work on the algorithmic code one piece at a time turning it into "real code" and meanwhile your "mountain of code" kind of runs (mostly writing to log files) and slowly does real functionality in each piece separately.
Is that possible at all? I mean, that's the dream, right?
Is it possible with the technologies (languages, tools, etc.) you are using?
Is it possible in OOP?
This was very long. 
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As far as solutions that would resolve to producing a mountain of code, a good example was my graphics library - getting it off the ground required me to resolve at compile time, mind you, various bit shifts, masks, and even certain operations like pixel type conversion since different pixel formats yield different actual types. I needed to do it all because (a) without a pixel, I couldn't draw anything, and (B) I needed to validate that what I was doing was even possible and architecturally sound before I built anything else on it. I needed to make sure it could actually DO all the things I needed it to do at compile time. That was hours at godbolt.org
Basically I had to make half of this file before I could even think about making anything else.
gfx/include/gfx_pixel.hpp at master · codewitch-honey-crisis/gfx · GitHub[^]
And that's not counting my bits library it uses, which is insane, but I was able to test that separately.
1. OOP is designed to abstract in order to manage complexity, sure. But it can only get you so far. The file I mentioned previously uses OOP concepts, even though it's GP. And yet, there are a lot of moving parts. You have the pixel class, the channel_traits, all the little helpers, etc.
2. Basically true, yeah. In my present situation I'm dealing with an API that I didn't design and making a common API between it and Arduino. The Arduino lib abstracts a lot, and doesn't give you access beneath the abstractions. The ESP-IDF on the other hand, is much more low level and requires a lot of boilerplate and groundwork - setting up an event handler, setting up a chunk to stream adapter, setting up a bunch of config struct fields for the request. etc. I need to expose everything at at least the level of abstraction the Arduino side exposes things at in order to provide a common interface. On the ESP-IDF side that's a lot of work. And an HTTP request won't go through until you get all the boilerplate correct.
3. Yeah. That's what I'm doing here
4. I mean, yeah i could say "i made an http request" without making it, but then what?
5. I can't stub out APIs I didn't design.  This one is an all or nothing situation. I either make it all work right or it doesn't.
Adding, I could probably have written this in the time I've procrastinated it, so I think it's more of an emotional/stress related issue more than anything.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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Very interesting discussion. Just as i thought, there is a lot here that is way down at the metal it seems those are the thing where you just have to do it to do it. 
honey the codewitch wrote: I could probably have written this in the time I've procrastinated it, so I think it's more of an emotional/stress related issue more than anything.
I totally get this. I have some ideas I'm trying to work on too and when it comes down to it, there is just a lot of work and a lot of code to actually type and it gets a bit overwhelming.
Usually once I start working on it I do get absorbed and take off with it (I think you're like that too) but there is definitely a Resistance when confronting the mountain of work to do.
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If I may jump into your very interesting discussion with a small observation drawn from decades of practice:
"Design top-down; implement bottom-up"
To take your example:
DrawRectangle(Point startPoint, int width, int height) What happens if width or heights are negative numbers? What if they are 0? Do I throw an exception? Should I just ignore it? Either you design exhaustively and are prepared to contemplate all possibilities or you start from the other end and discover all the obscure conditions and corner cases as you build up your project.
I could keep hammering down this point discussing integration of external components and other such things, but assuming you accept my suggestion and start building from bottom up, it could be quite a long time before you have something that you can start debugging. You can shorten this time (I call it the "valley of despair") by building unit tests. These will give you some confidence that at least individual bricks more or less work.
If your initial top-down design was not completely crap, the bricks you made will fit (approximately) in your project. It is now the time of integration tests and functional tests to shake up your edifice and smooth any rough corners that remain.
Throughout this process document, document, document. If you need the DrawRectangle function in another project, it's much easier if you know all the little quirks it has without having to read the code.
Mircea
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