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Richard MacCutchan wrote: Yes but this discussion is about students posting their homework as questions.
Then please stop doing as if every lazy idiot who copies his task into Q&A is a student 
It was also on whether we should collaborate with the teachers, to have the "cheaters" being caught.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: Then please stop doing as if every lazy idiot who copies his task into Q&A is a student
I can give you that those examples were not the best ones.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: It was also on whether we should collaborate with the teachers, to have the "cheaters" being caught.
Yes... until you hi-jacked it 
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: The kids are trying to get an education here, because the teachers aren't providing. Blocking one of the few places where they can get ACTUAL help and where people take time to explain (looking at you Griff!) will make things worse.
Maybe, but
enrolling in programming courses because "you want to become a programmer" really isn't a particularly good filter. No more than enrolling in a music class will make you a millionaire rock musician (or avoiding them for rap); no more than enrolling in a gym class will make one an Olympic contender.
Want to and able to, having no true cause-and-effect relationship (in either direction) is where the problem lies. Where I work, one of the employees went to classes to become a makeup artist. On a good day she looks like a geisha who applied her makeup with boxing gloves.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: enrolling in programming courses because "you want to become a programmer" really isn't a particularly good filter. No more than enrolling in a music class will make you a millionaire rock musician (or avoiding them for rap); no more than enrolling in a gym class will make one an Olympic contender.
A teacher is not paid to filter, but to educate. Not to create the best, but to transfer the basics.
I understand the confusion, as most educational institute seem to be only filtering, not educating.
W∴ Balboos wrote: Want to and able to, having no true cause-and-effect relationship (in either direction) is where the problem lies. Where I work, one of the employees went to classes to become a makeup artist. On a good day she looks like a geisha who applied her makeup with boxing gloves.
Tell her to find someone who can transfer basic knowledge. She might not be talented enough to use make up to look like something from the "Alien" movies, but that ain't the goal. Something like applying a foundation is not a complex science.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: I understand the confusion, as most educational institute seem to be only filtering, not educating.
I observe precisely the opposite. Starting with ethnically motivated enrollment quotas (an un-filter is better description) and then an array of micky-mouse courses to impart that feel-good aura. Finally, out in the job market where new hiring quotas cause relevant filtering (competence) to be avoided an prevent (even if unjustified) costly legal entanglements.Eddy Vluggen wrote: Tell her . . . Something like applying a foundation is not a complex science.
Well, aside from stealing her money by teaching beyond her capabilities, we can revisit the programming analogy. Learning to post on Farcebook doesn't make one computer savvy. Giving a diploma and telling someone they are is not at all helpful to them.
There's an implicit promise when teaching a curriculum: that the knowledge will be transferred in a usable manner - not just transferred.
Users vs. Builders. I can't be everything - and neither can anybody else.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: I observe precisely the opposite. Starting with ethnically motivated enrollment quotas (an un-filter is better description) and then an array of micky-mouse courses to impart that feel-good aura. Finally, out in the job market where new hiring quotas cause relevant filtering (competence) to be avoided an prevent (even if unjustified) costly legal entanglements.
How recently was your education experience?
Schools simply seem to filter based on who has "some" knowledge, instead of transferring basics. And yes, industry cannot rely on those false promises that schools give, so we have to test the candidate's knowledge on the subject again.
W∴ Balboos wrote: Well, aside from stealing her money by teaching beyond her capabilities, we can revisit the programming analogy. Learning to post on Farcebook doesn't make one computer savvy. Giving a diploma and telling someone they are is not at all helpful to them.
No, but it does sell student-loans and "good feelings" 
W∴ Balboos wrote: There's an implicit promise when teaching a curriculum: that the knowledge will be transferred in a usable manner - not just transferred.
Someone teaching a curriculum has no incentive to do so 
He/she just needs to deliver what the curriculum promised, in one form or the other, in order to claim money. Students seem to accept it, as long as they get their paper claiming they have said knowledge.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: How recently was your education experience?
In a european system? never. From your descriptions, I'll add that to my good-fortune list.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: They may know a thing or two on pizza's in Rome that may make a course well worth its money
Uh Oh! Pizza? On the way to the soap box.
I've had Italy's idea of pizza - I think their time would be better spent in NYC, just hopping from pizzeria to pizzeria.
The True Immortal - Their Can Be Only One! [^]
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Not stepping into that beesnest
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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W∴ Balboos wrote: Where I work, one of the employees went to classes to become a makeup artist. On a good day she looks like a geisha who applied her makeup with boxing gloves.
The visuals...thanks, I needed that.
So when you say she went...is it still work in progress, or is she done with the classes?
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dandy72 wrote: is she done with the classes?
She actually makes glorious note of it in her company profile - along with her other "degrees".
So - someone, somewhere - gave her scrolly-edged credentials to frame and wall-mount. Makes me wonder why I spent all those years in universities. No frame included with that stuff.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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First of all... I do know all is a "joke". It is just for the pleasure of debating.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: But I oppose the idea of having paid teachers offloading their work here
Actually what he proposed was them to take responsibility and answer their students (of course for free). If they had to invest their spare time answering here, what they are not able to explain in the lesson... I think that would increase their willing to do it right in the first place.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Nelek wrote: First of all... I do know all is a "joke". It is just for the pleasure of debating.
I have done many courses in the Netherlands, and IT-education is a joke.
Nelek wrote: Actually what he proposed was them to take responsibility and answer their students (of course for free). If they had to invest their spare time answering here, what they are not able to explain in the lesson... I think that would increase their willing to do it right in the first place.
A teacher would already be answering those questions, and even be paid for it. If he/she doesn't, that's a choice. Doesn't mean I have to put up with them here.
I do agree with the sentiment that students should be more recognizable; some people here only need a few keywords, others need a lot of background-explanation, and it is sometimes hard to guess which of the two you're talking to.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: some people here only need a few keywords, others need a lot of background-explanation, and it is sometimes hard to guess which of the two you're talking to.
really?
I don't think so:
Case 1:
I need to do XXX, I have started like this but can't get further because YYY
What have you tried?: filled with code (doesn't matter if right or wrong, at least code)
Case 2:
copy paste the text of the homework
What have you tried?: "nothing as I am new" // copy paste of the field above // "please help, it is urgent" // "googled a bit, but found nothing I can use"
Case 1 gets help, case 2 should get a kick in the ass and be expelled of the course.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Nelek wrote: I don't think so:
C# Discussion Boards[^]
Don't think if you can lookup and link
Nelek wrote: case 2 should get a kick in the ass and be expelled of the course.
Case 2 shouldn't exist. If you leave the classroom you should have the equipment for that days homework. I can imagine some things being unclear, but I cannot imagine for the life of me that those questions in Q&A coming from people who are "studying the language".
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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You continue mixing the concepts and reading what you want...
Eddy Vluggen wrote: If you leave the classroom you should have the equipment for that days homework.
I have already agreed with you and I do it again.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: Case 2 shouldn't exist.
Case 2: Has nothing to do with the quality of the education, it has to do with the quality of the student, it complains about the students that don't even try it by themselves and prefer to get something to copy paste in the internet. And that has nothing to do with the teacher.
I have had crap teachers during high school and college as the rest of the world. But I tried it on my own, got errors, read things by myself in libraries (or more lately in the internet), changed some things, tried it again and learned from my own errors.
This is is what I considered case #1 and for what I have seen in all these years is... this kind of people always have and will always get help in CP. No matter how basic the question is as far as they show they tried it.
Needing help is NOT the same than expecting someone to do your job.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Nelek wrote: You continue mixing the concepts and reading what you want...
..must have been arguing too much with Matt
Nelek wrote: Case 2: Has nothing to do with the quality of the education, it has to do with the quality of the student, it complains about the students that don't even try it by themselves and prefer to get something to copy paste in the internet. And that has nothing to do with the teacher.
I have yet to meet that student. The ones I know paid for an education, and are willing to put a little effort in it.
Nelek wrote: But I tried it on my own, got errors, read things by myself in libraries (or more lately in the internet), changed some things, tried it again and learned from my own errors.
If you expect that from a student, then why would said student have to pay for any teacher or course?
Nelek wrote: This is is what I considered case #1 and for what I have seen in all these years is... this kind of people always have and will always get help in CP. No matter how basic the question is as far as they show they tried it.
Not always, since they are sometimes flooded with messages that simply state that we don't do homework.
Nelek wrote: Needing help is NOT the same than expecting someone to do your job.
The latter one is often also from non-students, people who are already active in the workforce and don't even have a teacher.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: I have yet to meet that student. The ones I know paid for an education, and are willing to put a little effort in it.
I don't know if they pay or not for it, but if you just go to Q&A for a week you will find several examples of what we mean.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: Nelek wrote: But I tried it on my own, got errors, read things by myself in libraries (or more lately in the internet), changed some things, tried it again and learned from my own errors.
If you expect that from a student, then why would said student have to pay for any teacher or course?
I agree with you, that it should not be needed to do it. But if there is no other way to get the knowledge "you are paying for" because the teacher is that bad, at least do something against it and use the resources you have available due to that "paying for" (e.g. in my time: Laboratories, Library, specialized equipment...) and try to learn it on your own.
In one of the oral exams I had, my teacher started to ask me in deep detail because he thought I had copied the code instead of doing it myself. At the end, once the notes were given, before I got down of the tribune, he asked me... "and how did you do it? I have not explained that" my answer was "Yes, you bet you have not explained that, as well as many other things. But I investigated and asked teachers that do can explain". He got really angry and the rest of the people in the room started ROFLing. Luckily I had nothing to do with him anymore in the rest of my academic life.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: Nelek wrote: This is is what I considered case #1 and for what I have seen in all these years is... this kind of people always have and will always get help in CP. No matter how basic the question is as far as they show they tried it.
Not always, since they are sometimes flooded with messages that simply state that we don't do homework.
I see a lot of times people asking basics, getting help.
e.g. Q&A item or Q&A item
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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OriginalGriff wrote: ... and we might actually improve the quality of the next generation of developers.
Why would we want to do that? I'm going to need the odd bit of work in my dotage and it will be an awful lot easier to find if irksome young types don't get past the "plz send codez" stage.
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain
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That's one option. Then again, there's always option B, prevent new posts, provide a link for Google, and provide instructions on using it
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"Can't we do it on our own, does it have to be a group activity?"
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Hey, you seem to have accidentally selected the joke icon.
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Sounds like those introverts are the only sensible people who ever changed a light bulb.
I mean, it is a small and simple one man chore after all (at least around the house)! 
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