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honey the monster, codewitch wrote: I didn't intend to pry.
Not a concern.
You are free to ask or not; I am free to answer (or not).
honey the monster, codewitch wrote: The Torah. And the old testament that's derived from
Depending upon who's translation, the Torah is the Bible, not a derivation, to which were added prophets. Depending upon which prophets are added then determines it's flavor and audience.
One of the further clever things, per the story telling. The important people are not some image of perfection - they are real and flawed (some might say this adds credibility). All that, however, is brushed aside in that it's interpreted by people - and that can quickly turn the good into the bad - justifying agendas including slavery and genocide. No different, it seems, than what is done to other "volumes of sacred law"
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Interpretation is a feature in mythos**, not a bug. The imperfect transfer allows for adaptation, like imperfect gene transfer and imperfect gene expression does in evolutionary biology.
Mythos kept humanity going and societies together for longer than the alternative. That has to count for something, but more importantly, we don't have a mechanism outside the scientific method to evolve wisdom. And scientific inquiry isn't very good at that because it's geared at developing knowledge, which isn't the same thing. Sometimes wisdom is a byproduct but it's not the goal.
The greatest sin the west ever committed against itself was killing oral storytelling with the written word.
** many people confuse mythos with fiction. It's not necessarily. It's simply a way of transferring wisdom, knowledge, ideas, and history through storytelling. I just thought I'd make that clear lest any reader think I'm calling scripture categorically false here. That's not the case at all.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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Adding, I say derived from because the stories are divvied out differently - where the chapters divide, and also the OT lacks a lot of the stuff in the torah. It is essentially a reorganized subset of the torah, which is why i call it a derivation of it.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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honey the monster, codewitch wrote: and also the OT lacks a lot of the stuff in the torah. It is essentially a reorganized subset of the torah, which is why i call it a derivation of it.
Absolutely wrong ![^]*
The Torah "The Five Books of Moses" are the beginning chapters of the bible. Genesis, Exodus, &etc; ending with the death of Moses. It is, if you look with some care, occasionally anachronistic.
This is followed by prophets (not part the Torah). The chapters (into the five books) is a later creation for book-binders, perhaps - such divisions do not exist in a Torah scroll.
* I have to mitigate this with the concept that inconvenient parts may have been left out of the countless christian translations. Agendas are agendas.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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First of all, I don't believe it conveys everything if it's not in the Hebrew it was written in because the hebrew alphabet also conveys information in the letters.
You can't translate that.
So that's part of it.
And yes the books are there, but the suffering servant - isaiah 53 doesn't even exist as it's own story in the torah - it's part of the larger story that precedes it. the dividing line there exists in the OT but not in the torah.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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All those chapters and versus are of christian origin - they are not in the torah.
Now saying that translation of it from Hebrew to something else loses something is not a fair argument.
For that matter, you could buy the book in Hebrew (and Aramaic) for that. I've seen an orthodox Jewish version of the bible, translated into English - it's loaded, both in English and Hebrew (and I was told, Aramaic for this scholar Rashi) with commentary and interpretations. At least in the English, they'll offer alternative interpretations according to different scholars. And, of course, footnotes. I think the thing would be 1/3 it's size if they left that stuff out.
Like stories I read from this author "Sholem Aleichem" - they were written in Yiddish. I was either told or it was in the foreword of one of the books that if it took five pages in Yiddish it would take fifteen to translate it to English (an example of that nuance you spoke of). That, I cannot deny. But don't confuse the christian views and divisions and translation with the "real thing".
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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you misunderstand me. i'm not talking about simply translation issues. I'm talking about the fact that the hebrew alphabet's letters are also words. The OT has an entire subtext to it in the hebrew that cannot be translated to another language because you lose those letters and their relationships to one another in the texts.
This isn't about translation and interpretation. It's about stripping a whole submeaning from the texts. A meaning a lot of the metaphysics would rely on.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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honey the monster, codewitch wrote: I'm talking about the fact that the hebrew alphabet's letters are also words.
That starts to ring of Kabbalah.
That is in and of itself a separate discussion - wherein I consider the Kabbalah a wrong-turn, i.e., mysticism and numerology, in Judaism.
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Well then we part ways here definitely, because I am something of a student of lurianic kabbalah. It put words to a psychotic experience and a week of mania i had some years back and it left an impression I don't think simple online discourse will dispel.
Still, it's a hobby, not an obsession so I'm not so worried about it. The meds help, to be honest.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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honey the monster, codewitch wrote: I am something of a student of lurianic kabbalah
Well - a logical explanation why we disagreed on the preceeding parts of the thread.
Numerology and I have long been enemies.*
* This is written in seven words corresponding to the seven days of the week, as are the count of the letters in the 2nd and 4th words, along with the third and the fifth words.
| Ravings en masse^ |
|---|
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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to be fair i'm not as into the gametria. but i acknowledge it.
and yes that explains our disagreement. I'm okay disagreeing neighbor. I'm an odd bird and tend to disagree with a lot of people. =) it's fine.
i still use if statements without braces, and is that not a greater sin than dabbling in the gray arts?
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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Here, the greatest sin, politely mentioned only in diminished text, is VB6 .
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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I mean, it's an iconic car, but I could by a true classic for that kind of money.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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It is a true classic.
Maybe not in the way you'd like, but still.
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... with Amazon and Google listening to everything you say: Microsoft workers 'listen' to some translated Skype calls - BBC News[^]
So ... about the only people not listening in is CP ... Chris? Chris? Who turned my webcam on? 
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640
Never throw anything away, Griff
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Griff,
put on some pants.
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You've got the wrong webcam - I don't own any pants.
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640
Never throw anything away, Griff
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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well you look smashing in that dress, dear.
When I was growin' up, I was the smartest kid I knew. Maybe that was just because I didn't know that many kids. All I know is now I feel the opposite.
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Sheepsies don't need pantsies.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Nice new hair-cut, btw :p
enum HumanBool { Yes, No, Maybe, Perhaps, Probably, ProbablyNot, MostLikely, MostUnlikely, HellYes, HellNo, Wtf }
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Sheesh, Griff, we're only here for the cat.
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I'd have to get paid danger money to watch members' webcams. :shudder:
cheers
Chris Maunder
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