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harold aptroot wrote: you should have no expectation that anything in real life is fair.
Ummmm... Griff used the idea of fairness as to why Apple should pay more taxes. Surely you won't begrudge me for throwing it back at him?
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
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I don't have to be fair either.
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Probably something in the water over there. 
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
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Of course, life is not fair.
But that is (or should be) one of the purpose of the governments and institutions (at least those that claim to be democratic and serve the people): to make it more fair, to give a better prospect to those who are dealt a bad hand to start with and to avoid those with power to abuse it (too much). Obviously, they are very regularly failing at that, even in the country where they kind of have that purpose.
Apple have obviously (with some help from the Irish System/Governments) abused loopholes and tax laws from different countries to pay a ridiculously low amount of taxes.
Making people pay retroactively is always going to cause some kind of moral dilemma. When the "offender" was doing something legal (or not illegal) but obviously immoral (and they knew it), may be we should still make them pay. It is not the same as changing the rate when you have not tried to abuse the system by actively finding loopholes. That "could" encourage more people/companies to act in a more moral way. Or not (looking at human nature).
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Ireland and Apple agreed to a rate.
Under European law, this is tax collusion, and is illegal. That is why this is tax evasion, rather than avoidance. The rules have not been changed retroactively.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough."
Alan Kay.
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Rob Grainger wrote: Under European law, this is tax collusion, and is illegal.
Didn't Ireland (as a country) not know that? When a government entity signs a deal, Apple would not have thought that they're being lured into a trap.
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Rajesh R Subramanian wrote: Apple would not have thought that they're being lured into a trap
I laugh, I cry, the idea that Apple could be lured into a trap especially on tax laws and ruling is mind boggling. They probably spent more on tax lawyers than they paid in tax.
Apple, along with most multi nationals are morally repugnant, but how anyone can expect anything else is just silly.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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After agreeing a tax rate with Ireland, income from most other countries outside the US in which Apple does business was channelled through Ireland to avoid paying the tax in those countries. The whole thing stinks. They should be hit hard.
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That is not what happened. See the linked article in the first post.
"Member states cannot give tax benefits to selected companies - this is illegal under EU state aid rules," said Commissioner Margrethe Vestager.
Since Ireland is part of the EU, it has to abide by the EU rules.
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I happen to know for fact that certain member states give "incentives" to European corporations - I've seen it personally. These incentives took the form of free land, cash grants, low interest loans, etc...
Illegal?
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
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I have been a militant for banning tax evasions for years (I mean, actively, here not to mention it[^]). If you take only one year of the money yearly put in tax havens (€800 billions - that is 800,000,000,000€), you'd be able to feed countries in need for several decades. For all things that go wrong in our world, this one is certainly one of the biggest and the cause to most of other "worldwide" problems. And ironically, also probably one of the easiest to solve, if it weren't for the people who are able to solve it ... to be the first who make profit out of it 
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OriginalGriff wrote: Just because it's "legal" doesn't mean it's right: that is tax
Agreed!
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The whole point here is that Apple colluded with the Irish government to undercut other European countries in a one-off deal that is illegal under European law. It is not legal, hence Apple being liable for an enormous tax bill.
Well deserved, I say.
"If you don't fail at least 90 percent of the time, you're not aiming high enough."
Alan Kay.
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Well said - couldn't agree more
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Rage wrote: As for the rest, you are mixing up a lot of things.
Like what?
Apple and Ireland agreed on a tax rate. Apple paid it. The EU (not Ireland) wants more money and retroactively changes the rules to get it. What exactly have I mixed up?
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
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Mike Mullikin wrote: What exactly have I mixed up?
Your hate for Europe and the Apple case.
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 So nothing.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
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The EU didn't change rules retroactively, the rules Ireland offered to Apple were not legal according to EU rules. Therefore, Apple must pay some extra taxes to Ireland, and Ireland probably will get fined at some point by the EU.
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Just a note: the EU didn't exist when Apple opened it's first office in Cork in 1980. The EEC was in existence then, the EU started in 1993.
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I sing in harmony with your song!
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Mike Mullikin wrote: Let Europeans live with the monster they've created.
If they1 cannot bring Turkey closer to EU, they'll try to bring EU closer to Turkey.
1 - not all Europeans live in EU
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A US Senate subcommittee seems to think that Apple has "used a tax loophole to shift the profits generated [in the US] by that valuable property offshore"
The New York Times[^] For my eyes, that would be a problem for US taxpayers as well.
You seem drawn to hating Europe, way before this. Better start hating the Senate too.
... such stuff as dreams are made on
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First of all I don't hate Europe or Europeans. I don't care for the EU and I think Europeans were silly for creating it. I believe in time they'll likely come to regret it. It may end up with big changes or dissolution. I fear it will get much worse before it gets better.
Secondly, as a rule I dislike much of the US federal government (including our Senate). It's a bloated, bureaucracy that nearly always forgets it's place at home (they should be our servants) and abroad (they need to stay out of other people's business).
Lastly, I don't believe for a second that Apple (or any other US corporation) is entirely innocent. They should all follow the laws, rules and regulations in every country they do business in. If they run afoul they should be punished.
My problem with this huge tax bill is the retroactive nature of it. Ireland set the rate. Apple paid it. The EU coming along later and demanding more money is wrong.
In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem. ~ Ronald Reagan
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