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Quote: Nevertheless, assuming that the universe is finite and therefore the resources of potential simulators are finite, then a volume containing a simulation will be finite and a lattice spacing must be non-zero, and therefore in principle there always remains the possibility for the simulated to discover the simulators.
from: "Constraints on the Universe as a Numerical Simulation" pdf download of 90% incomprehensible (to me) mathematics and physics available: [^]
Would a scientifically valid proof that our reality is a simulation make a difference ?
If, as the paper comments, the current simulation we experience as "reality" could be a creation of our future selves using some future open-source method, then, extrapolating from the current humongous messes found in today's open-sauce projects, might we postulate the future mess of the simulationsource code would render our proving we are in a simulation impossible.
Or, we could be in the equivalent of tv-dramas like Dynasty, The Sopranos ?
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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BillWoodruff wrote: Or, we could be in the equivalent of tv-dramas like Dynasty, The Sopranos ?
If so, the bit with me in is going to be pretty dull - but probably mean it's broadcast after the watershed. 
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640
Never throw anything away, Griff
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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If we live in a simulation and discover it we left with only a few options (IMHO):
1. Take soma from "Brave New World"...
2. Go deep into depression and became a dying simulation
3. Try to go on and figure out how we can take over the control of the simulation (hoping that it will be in time)...
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
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4. learn to enjoy the exquisite loneliness of being gods.
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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Of course we're a simulation.
This is an actual discussion of future developers:
Dev 1: Well, the baseline seems fine, let's go with this.
America.President.Color = Colors.White;
git commit
git push Dev 2: Lol, look at them doing wars about skin color and such, now let's mess 'em up real good!
America.President.Color = Colors.Black; Dev 1: Yo fam, that's wicked lol me like XD
git commit
git push Dev 1: Hey man, I've got this awesome idea! This will certainly make them go bonkers!
America.President.Gender = Genders.Female; Dev 2: Lmao, and while we're playing with genders anyway, what about this?
public enum Genders
{
Male,
Female,
Shemale,
ApacheHelicopter,
Dev 1: Hahaha! Awesome! So maybe we shouldn't mess with the president's gender just yet... Let me revert that real quick...
git checkout AmericanPresident.cs Dev 2: So, got any better idea's?
Dev 1: Well, I liked your black color, so let's just explore some more colors.
America.President.Color = Colors.Orange; Dev 2: Rofl, and maybe we can do something like make him a pop singer in 2020!
Dev 1: Haha, let's think about that some more. So we good?
Dev 2: Yeah man, let's get this sh*t deployed XD
git commit
git push Dev 1: We should totally share our findings with the Europe dev team!
Dev 2: By the way, heard anything from the sys admins? I heard our servers are now running at 100% CPU most of the time, some servers already overheated...
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Sander Rossel wrote: ApacheHelicopter,
OK, I LOLed...
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Sander Rossel wrote: Dev 2: Rofl, and maybe we can do something like make him a pop singer in 2020!
Reminds me of our narcissist in chief dancing. If your programmers had anything to do with that, they should lose their jobs!  
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Pretty sweet song though 
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"I refute it thus!" [kicks large stone]
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You should read James P. Hogan: Realtime Interrupt - a great novel for loosing your sleep at night.
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Quote: “It is quite an illusion to imagine that one adjusts to reality essentially without the use of language and that language is merely an incidental means of solving specific problems of communication or reflection. The fact of the matter is that the 'real world' is to a large extent unconsciously built upon the language habits of the group. No two languages are ever sufficiently similar to be considered as representing the same social reality. The worlds in which different societies live are distinct worlds, not merely the same world with different labels attached. We see and hear and otherwise experience very largely as we do because the language habits of our community predispose certain choices of interpretation.”
Edward Sapir, 1929
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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Wow, never saw that quote before. Thanks for sharing it!
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you might enjoy this:Quote: “The beginning, middle, and end of the birth, growth, and perfection of whatever we behold is from contraries, by contraries, and to contraries; and whatever contrariety is, there is action and reaction, there is motion, diversity, multitude, and order, there are degrees, succession and vicissitude.” Giordano Bruno, written circa 1600CE
Words like these got Bruno burned at the stake for heresy in 1609CE.
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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That is awesome. Yes, I've heard of him, but unfortunately not as familiar as it looks like I should be with his writing.
You sound like a programmer-philosopher! I love it. I have a friend who's a professor of philosophy and talking to him makes me wish I perhaps taken a riskier path in college...
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It's never too late to increase your exposure to philosophy ... and, there are so many free resources on the web ... videos, e-books.
The "classic" novel by Pirsig, "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," is an entrancing, wonderful, way to meet Plato's, Aristotle's, and other ancient Greeks, ideas: [^], [^]
For me, at age 75, I find the Meditations of Marcus Aurelius [^] as relevant to my life as morning coffee  But, I think I wasn't ready for his teachings until age 60 
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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Thanks for the recommendations. I read "Zen..." many years ago, but I think I was far to young (and naive) to understand what it was really about. I need to find my copy and read it again.
I have a stack of philosophy books to read, but I don't think Marcus Aurelius is among them. I will check him out too, thanks!
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video version -- Computing a Universe Simulation -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GLgZvTCbaA
Caveat Emptor.
"Progress doesn't come from early risers – progress is made by lazy men looking for easier ways to do things." Lazarus Long
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BillWoodruff wrote: Or, we could be in the equivalent of tv-dramas like Dynasty, The Sopranos ?
We're not sufficiently well dressed to be in Dynasty. We're not sufficiently well written to be in The Sopranos.
Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect. - Mark Twain
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BillWoodruff wrote: Would a scientifically valid proof that our reality is a simulation make a difference ?
I suppose it depends... Do you want to take the red pill or the blue one?
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Nelek wrote: Do you want to take the red pill or the blue one?
I'll go ask Goddess when she's ten feet tall. [^]
«Where is the Life we have lost in living? Where is the wisdom we have lost in knowledge? Where is the knowledge we have lost in information?» T. S. Elliot
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Yes it matters if we know.
The Bannister Effect. Once the 4 minute mile was achieved, breaking a belief that it could not be, MANY people did it.
So, we have people leading people for years (Carnegie, etc). Tony Robbins. Teaching you to walk on hot coals without getting burned.
It would have a transformative power on those that master it. Ala the Matrix.
Now here is the sick part...
What happens if our simulation is controlled from a simulation, and we discover the technique that those who wrote us use to detect their simulation? (ie, can the machine out think their Gods?)...
And what happens if that cascades to destroy the whole thing to start again? BOOM!
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Don't drink too much Kool Aid... it's actually bad for your health...
...else we will
kill -9 $YOU
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