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"If all you are doing is running sprocs, then you defeat the purpose of even using an ORM."
I wonder why he didn't assume that I knew that from the get-go, thus prompting my question in the first f*ckin place...
"I stopped using sprocs over 10 years ago, once I discovered how to use an ORM like nHibernate and EF, becuase I had been in too many shops where those bunny rabbit breeding sprocs were all over the place with half of them no one knew what they were for or about."
I'm really happy for him. However, I have a legacy database that uses nothing but stored procs, and that cannot be changed.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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MS Forum idiot wrote: "If all you are doing is running sprocs, then you defeat the purpose of even using an ORM."
No, it doesn't. You still get your results as if they come from a normal query, and can map those to objects easy.
MS Forum idiot wrote:
"I stopped using sprocs over 10 years ago, once I discovered how to use an ORM like nHibernate and EF, becuase I had been in too many shops where those bunny rabbit breeding sprocs were all over the place with half of them no one knew what they were for or about."
You can create multiple procs for different users, with different access-levels.
* This answer provided by a CodeProject forum idiot 
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Check his age... Maybe never heard of legacy DB...
And just for the case - there is nothing wrong using SPs and ORM together - definitely it defeats not any purpose... after all SPs are returning tables just like any other select...
"The only place where Success comes before Work is in the dictionary." Vidal Sassoon, 1928 - 2012
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"Legacy"? That's - whisper it around the current generation - "maintenance" isn't it. They don't do no steenkin' maintenance, they are far too valuable for such a mundane task...
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640
Never throw anything away, Griff
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Many years ago, when I had programming as a summer job during high-school (yes computers had been invented, recently), the guys running the shop were eyeing a job application:
"I really do like maintenance programming."
"Sounds like a lazy sod, we sure won't interview him"
"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"
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#realJSOP wrote: "If all you are doing is running sprocs pointing out the obvious and not helping, then you defeat the purpose of even using an ORM the MS forum."
FTFY
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I hear ya.
The most useful thing I've seen stored procedures do is freaking disappear without a trace. Fragile-ass-rubbish they are.
I use them only as needed.
Nor do I use ORMs either.
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PIEBALDconsult wrote: I use them only as needed.
And that goes for triggers as well.
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Damned straight.
Do more with less.
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If you switch energy suppliers - and here in the UK we are recommended to do so loudly and stridently - always do it in late spring / early summer.
If you don't they will use historical data from actual meter readings to estimate your annual costs which will be over the most expensive months of the year, not the cheapest ...
That's the second conversation I've had with the idiots after they try to up my direct debit by 40% pcm because I'm obviously going to use as much heating the house all summer as I do all winter ... 
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640
Never throw anything away, Griff
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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They know where you live, average temperatures are probably only around 0.1 degrees warmer in summer
Now that I have a "smart" meter why can't I pay monthly for exactly what I use should I choose to? I'm always in credit with my energy supplier regardless of which one it is, obviously they are making profit investing our money.
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Energy companies are their own breed of special, aren't they?
When I called mine to sort out a new tariff a few weeks back, they wanted me to provide them with a meter reading. Despite the fact that they'd installed a "smart meter" over a year previously.
Once I pointed that out, it took a couple of button-clicks for them to get the up-to-date readings, so it's not even as if there was a problem with the meter.
I'm starting to think their name stands for "Extremely Dense ![Elephant | [mastadon]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/elephant.gif) -wits".
"These people looked deep within my soul and assigned me a number based on the order in which I joined."
- Homer
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Tip - call them and say you want to switch to variable direct debit.
Very few energy suppliers advertise this.
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We do the impossible right away, miracles may take longer. Like art, wizardry obviously also is everything that is percieved as wizardry...
Wizard of Id[^]
I have lived with several Zen masters - all of them were cats.
His last invention was an evil Lasagna. It didn't kill anyone, and it actually tasted pretty good.
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As one of the senior developers where I work, I am tasked with mentoring the junior members of the team. This is a part of my role I really enjoy, as I get to pass down my hard won knowledge and experience to the next generation of software developers. What I have found over the years is that they all seem to lack one vital ingredient. How to debug / diagnose a problem. I have seen many of them struggle to use the debugger, set breakpoints, step through code, use the F12 browser tools etc. Even those with First Class honours degrees have struggled with this.
I remember when doing my own degree (many years ago) we were taught these basic skills (using a Borland C++ IDE). Is this vital skill no longer being taught to new graduates? I feel this is a vital skill in any software developer's tool chest.
"There are two ways of constructing a software design: One way is to make it so simple that there are obviously no deficiencies, and the other way is to make it so complicated that there are no obvious deficiencies. The first method is far more difficult." - C.A.R. Hoare
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It's even worse than that: debug-by-printing is often explicitly recommended.
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It's the only cross platform and cross environment mode, and can be implemented in the release code itself to catch bugs.
It is not bad in itself, it's just a tool - also GDB sucks, the only decent debugger I used is VisualStudio, which is usable basically only on Windows platforms.
GCS d--(d+) s-/++ a C++++ U+++ P- L+@ E-- W++ N+ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t+ 5? X R+++ tv-- b+(+++) DI+++ D++ G e++ h--- r+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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It is bad. GDB is also bad. Tools can be bad, and often are.
I've heard that RemedyBG isn't bad, but I haven't tried it yet.
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harold aptroot wrote: It's even worse than that: debug-by-printing is often explicitly recommended.
And why is that so bad?
I have found a lot of bugs just adding a couple of messageboxes / wprintf in places of the code
If you are programming things that might have a timing component, debugging alters the real world use case when you hit the stop points. Saving a couple of values there and printing them later on the screen doesn't screw your performance or timing relational so bad.
And as de2k88 said... you might use it always.
You can even "debug" the release version with it.
I think this is like the "goto"... it is not bad per se. But I can agree with you that it might get messy pretty fast.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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We should use both. Sometimes printing (really logging) is essential (e.g., async and parallel programming). In fact, one of my bugbears at various client sites is the lack of logging features.
Kevin
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Debug by printing can be useful at times. That's the whole point of having log files. It shouldn't be the only tool in the box, but it shouldn't be completely discarded.
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If you are building code to ship to customers, then in the field problem diagnosis is a fundamentally important thing. If something only fails in the field and you can't reproduce it, it can turn into a major circle-jerk (with you being the jerk in the circle.) Good logging, with variable threshold, is a key part of that.
And, since it's already there, it will serve you just as well during development as well. For me, I have a very powerful logging system that is supported throughout the entire code base, and the ability to log to a centralized log server. This has saved me more times than I can count. I mean, we all love being jerked in a circle, but sometimes you just don't have time for it.
Explorans limites defectum
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Dominic Burford wrote: How to debug / diagnose a problem.
Trust me, this is not limited to junior developers.
Dominic Burford wrote: I remember when doing my own degree (many years ago) we were taught these basic skills (using a Borland C++ IDE).
I do not remember anything like that, but given it's been just 5 years since I got out of the university, I wouldn't be surprised if this was a trend some time ago.
I struggled with this for a while when I had just started, but now I feel comfortable enough to be in your position.
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When I was at uni, you added punch cards to say
PRINT *, 'The value of I is ", i Assuming you had enough runs left: Our score for an assignment decreased by 10% for each run over three. 
When I moved into the "real world" and started working with embedded Z80 assembler, I had to write my own debugger to stop the process and display register / memory data in real time ...
Visual Studio has so many tools to make beginners life easier, and many of them have no idea that they even exist, much less that "debugging" is different from "fixing the compilation errors".
Sent from my Amstrad PC 1640
Never throw anything away, Griff
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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