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S Houghtelin wrote: Turns out that they are using MS Access 2000
You can't fix stupid.
Access sucks in so many ways...
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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This is called legacy code. I love legacy code.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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Are you a Highly Paid Consultant who charges 10x the cost of a salaried worker when you have to deal with it?
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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Shhhhhh..... 
And who the $%%$%$ gets 10x salaried? That's just nonsense.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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Dunno, I've heard of highly paid consultants getting several hundred/hour.
As much as I like the stability of a permanent job and not having to do any of that icky sales and marketing for myself if I knew where I could get that kind of money I'd probably be doing it myself. At least for the year or three it'd take me to earn enough to buy a house with cash.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, weighing all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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Well, 10x rate has not been my experience. Now, I have heard of consultants coming in via some consultant house - say for SAP. Or IBM, etc. Then you pay. But for small time consultants like myself? Nah, we make a bit more to cover things employees have covered by employers.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: You can't fix stupid.
How true!
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Access sucks in so many ways...
Care to elaborate?
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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By what I had to live through, Access itself is not the worst problem. The die hard VBA fans, their culture of tinkering and their typically less than brilliant workarounds are the problem. They have no clue why nobody else came up with such brilliant 'patterns' and feel quite insulted when you must tell them that they have built an unmaintainable mess.
If I hear the word 'Access' in an interview, I'm out of there as quickly as I can.I make mistakes only twice: For the first and the last time.
I am endeavoring, ma'am, to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins.
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CodeWraith wrote: die hard VBA fans
Who said anything about VBA?..or did I miss something? 
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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kmoorevs wrote: Who said anything about VBA?..or did I miss something?
I believe CodeWraith was alluding to the fact that many people who use Access use it because they can use VBA to manipulate it and then they think VBA is the best programming language ever and the associated issues with that.
As a matter of fact, why would anyone use Access if they don't use VBA? Well, I guess maybe because it's part of MS-Office.
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Access leads to VBA, VBA leads to bad code, bad code leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate ... to suffering and the Dark Side.
Ask any Jedi.
I am endeavoring, ma'am, to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins.
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CodeWraith wrote: By what I had to live through, Access itself is not the worst problem. The die hard VBA fans, their culture of tinkering and their typically less than brilliant workarounds are the problem. They have no clue why nobody else came up with such brilliant 'patterns' and feel quite insulted when you must tell them that they have built an unmaintainable mess.
Hmmm...I have worked in C, C++, Java, C#, Perl and SQL for decades. Certainly those that I have talked to suggest that JavaScript is similar.
And nothing suggests that any of those are chaos free.
So exactly which technology is chaos free?
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You don't have to give me reasons to think that JavaScript is junk. 
Still, the language is only a secondary problem. It's the culture of merrily hacking away without a plan or architecture and the myth that this is the one and only way to tackle everything. And when the day comes that the junk collapses under its own weight, then it's somehow your fault for pointing it out.
I honestly don't like to be called an idiot by people who never learned as much as I already have forgotten. Call me a snob, but I don't work in a place with such a culture. I know how it ends and having had the dubious pleasure once is enough.
I am endeavoring, ma'am, to construct a mnemonic memory circuit using stone knives and bearskins.
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The Lounge[^]
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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It is a period of civil war. Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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Old misogynistic bugger feeling intellectually and professionally challenged by a younger (I assume) women starts bullying her.
She should report him to her manager (and/or HR); if they do not get involve, she should start looking for a better job.
I'd rather be phishing!
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Oh jeeze, talk about throwing the old guy under the bus with 3rd hand comments. We could spin this another way - his wife may be dying of cancer, he was told by HR to train his replacement, and she's just a *itch.
I'm sure she's a nice person, I hope his wife is well, and he has a good job, but to start re-writing stuff on her second day there? Maybe time for a little coaching.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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charlieg wrote: but to start re-writing stuff on her second day there?
If one is not engaged exactly to do that, that's the best way to not pass the training time.
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Yeah, right, the moron excuse is to always blame the woman.
I'd rather be phishing!
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Yeah, right, the feminazi excuse is to always blame the man.
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He is not blaming the woman, he is blaming the person that in the first day at work says the one in charge of the training "that's a crappy old fashioned thing and I can do better".
If a man had done it, my answer would have been exactly the same. If you are not hired to do exactly that, then shut the f*** up at least until you are in for some months
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Maximilien wrote: Old misogynistic bugger feeling intellectually and professionally challenged by a younger (I assume) women starts bullying her.
Description says that she was in a training class. Not an architecture meeting tasked with mapping out the future of the company.
And given it was a training class for MS Access I can only wonder what the intent of instructor and student was. As a student, I wouldn't suppose that myself I would actually need training on MS Access. It would be nice to be introduced to the layout but I most definitely would not be challenging the structure on the first day.
And I have been working with databases for more than 30 years.
Conversely as an instructor either the students are expected to have no knowledge or they are experienced professionals. With no knowledge then they should do nothing but learn. As experienced professionals they should already understand the nature of legacy applications and the intent of an introductory session. Neither of those types of students should be challenging the architecture.
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jschell wrote: With no knowledge then they should do nothing but learn. As experienced professionals they should already understand the nature of legacy applications and the intent of an introductory session. Neither of those types of students should be challenging the architecture.
At least not until you are in enough time to understand the legacies, frames, history and have already built a name in the company.
I have re-built things a couple of times in projects that were going bad and ended faster than trying to fix the previous mess.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I started off application development with Access 2000 databases... badly...
I wrote some horrors in VBA that fortunately are no longer roaming the earth, as the company was folded(not due to my VBA I hasten to add).
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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I'm sure the general consensus here will be that Access is evil and should be avoided at all costs. I'll go against the grain here and just say that Access is simply another RDBMS that works perfectly well for small single user applications.
It may be old tech, but it works.
edit: I'm referring mostly to using Access as a database only, not for creating applications...I hate VBA as much as the rest of you! 
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
modified 6-Oct-17 9:09am.
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