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I don't think that is correct. Nothing I've seen leads me to believe that is true.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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what you have seen (e.g. the story below) and what is the case is actually two different beasts and they're easy to confuse.
Those that are not suited to the style of training yuor describe elsewhere tend to leave, so you're left with the people who are more suited to it(or just like it and thus the training is effective for them). Thus an observer sees a self selecting group being trained in a particular way - and draws a conclusion.
Take that same self selecting group and training them in another style and you are more than likely have the same result.
Bryce
MCAD
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bryce wrote: what you have seen (e.g. the story below) and what is the case is actually two different beasts and they're easy to confuse.
This part of the thread doesn't have anything to do with the story below. I'm not sure hwo you are relating them.
I've got a little more experience than just reading someone else's post.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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There is a BIG difference between training with a willing opponent and fighting. I had a teacher who taught everything from combat submission wrestling, Jeet Kun Do, Kali - Silat, Muay Tai, Karate...
He would tell the Kickboxing and CSW class that "a few months of full contact sparring here and you can beat any 'point sparring' black belt".
It is very true. I watched some of his more advanced "traditional martial arts" guys come to the class and as soon as it was full contact, they were like a deer in the headlights.
There is a phrase from the first generation MMA circuits (I forget who said it). Punch a BJJ blackbelt in the face and he becomes a blue belt. Do it again and he is a white belt.
That isn't entirely true any more, but if you don't train full contact, it isn't real.
However, that said, kickboxing has a lot of things it cannot prepare for: ground fighting, multi-opponent, weapons, coercion, drug induced crazy... usually the best defense is running really fast and screaming really loud.
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I strongly agree with everything you've said.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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Pualee wrote: usually the best defense is running really fast and screaming really loud.
On the assumption that the best defense is a good offense, kick boxing still has a lot to offer. Once you put your foot into your attackers family jewels, he'll be rolling on the ground whimpering quietly instead of screaming and chasing you.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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I'd agree with most everything here, but the initial learning has to use a willing assistant, especially in an art like hapkido, since it's most effective when it's automatic. Once that is ingrained, live sparring is essential to perfecting the skill. That's one of the things I liked about my school, when it was open; sparring nights. It wasn't required, but it was encouraged and the smarter students took advantage of it.
Pualee wrote: usually the best defense is running really fast and screaming really loud.
Very true, and there's no shame in living to fight another day. I've never lost a fight in the first five miles...
Will Rogers never met me.
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I tell my students - "Run the like coward i am"
<edit>
Oh and cowards live longer 
Bryce
MCAD
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bryce wrote: tell my students
That explains why you were so touchy about the martial arts thing.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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i'm not touchy  if you want to touch me you have to pay me like all the other programmers
Bryce
MCAD
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For some reason this reminded me of This shirt[^]
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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Just using a knee works too.
True story: when my oldest daughter was in sixth grade, she was in line at a camp the sixth graders in our school district go to every year. A boy behind her snapped her bra strap. She turned around and kneed him in the groin. He dropped. Story spread. No guy ever snapped her bra strap again.
Years later, she was working at an Italian fast food chain. Several of the girls complained to my daughter about a male manager hitting on them. She'd get pissed and tell them to do something about it. One evening, she was in the back alone cutting some vegetables and the guy stepped up to her. Without turning around, she told him to back off or she'd chop his balls off. He never hit on her again. Stayed far away, in fact.
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She knows where to hit someone
It's also worth noting my daughter has done well at full contact sparring with the boys. She's only had to challenge one person, and it was sort of funny.
She's usually very passive. She had someone over one day who was taunting and hitting. It started out as a play thing, but then it wasn't funny anymore. My daughter kept telling the girl it was over, and to stop it. Eventually she said, firmly, that if she touched her again she would be sorry. Problem solved 
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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can i suggest that kneeing someone in the groin in an overreaction to having a bra snapped?
I mean its a great story "yeah this bloke snapped her bra so knee kneed him in the nuts." yeah what a B^*%*&D deserved what he got.
Well not really. I'd argue she went over the top and got away with it because shes a girl and society encourages that.
A proportional response would have been more in order. i reckon.
Bryce
MCAD
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I agree... and had I not stopped to read something else first, would have posted it!!
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Not if you're a twelve year old girl maturing earlier than her classmates. Talk to a teenage girl. They hate this kind of bullying. So, no, I don't think it was an overreaction. Thing is, it worked. (And the kid--I knew him when they got to high school--never snapped any other girls bra straps.
Pray tell, what would be the proportional response?
bryce wrote: got away with it because shes a girl
Funny, the boy wasn't punished because that's what boys do. Truth is, she got away with it because the kid was a smart ass and nobody tattled.
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I'm sure they do hate this kind of thing - it is indeed inappropriate, i disagree a knee to the nuts is a gross overreaction -
I'm also sure the kid never did snap another bra again but there were other options to take.
A proportional response might have been a good old fashioned verbal ear bashing, a complaint to the school etc, as far as a slap perhaps - depends on the situation.
A knee to the nuts can have implications for later in life for the chap in question (and again there indeed was no place for the bra snapping that too was wrong and inappropriate).
Bryce
MCAD
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bryce wrote: A proportional response might have been a good old fashioned verbal ear bashing, a complaint to the school etc, as far as a slap perhaps - depends on the situation.
Are you serious? Do you even remember being twelve or thirteen? In my experience, complaining to teachers doesn't do a damn thing to stop bullying except to make it worse to the kid being bullied. A slap would have been laughed at and likely would have encouraged the behavior further.
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You shouldn't touch someone else. If you do, you may not like what will happen. Keep your hands to yourself, you never knwo when you can make someone feel threatened or abused.
bryce wrote: A proportional response might have been
I think that is just your opinion. You don't have the authority to decide what is proportional. Factually speaking, snapping a bra can be sexual harassment, and filing a complaint would be proportional.
bryce wrote: good old fashioned verbal ear bashing, a complaint to the school etc, as far as a slap perhaps - depends on the situation.
So a violent reaction could be appropriate, so long as you agree with which one is taken.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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bryce wrote: can i suggest that kneeing someone in the groin in an overreaction to having a bra snapped?
So long as it's not your little girl. Would you be cool if she was snapping the cup on someones jock strap?
If someone touches my daughters undergarments, messes with her mammories (which is what that is attached to), or touches her at all, then she can do what she thinks is right. You shouldn't touch someone else, and you shouldn't put your fingers in their undergarments.
bryce wrote: shes a girl and society encourages that.
Did you really just type that? Violating someone is violating them. It doesn't matter how.
bryce wrote: A proportional response would have been more in order
So you get to say what that is? She has to deal with it correctly when people grab underwear that is in the vicinity of her breasts because society encourages it? I don't think so. She did just fine.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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loctrice wrote:
can i suggest that kneeing someone in the groin in an
overreaction to having a bra snapped?
So long as it's
not your little girl. Would you be cool if she was snapping the cup on someones
jock strap?
No thats not ok either. I think I've been clear on all of this
loctrice wrote:
bryce wrote: shes a girl and society encourages
that.
Did you really just type that? Violating someone is
violating them. It doesn't matter how.
Yes i agreed with you it was inappropriate what the boy did. My point was that society encourages girls to overreact and knee the boy in the nuts. My position was that the overreaction was not ok and also that the initial assault was not ok.
Bryce
loctrice wrote: So you get to say what that is? She has to deal with it correctly when people
grab underwear that is in the vicinity of her breasts because society encourages
it? I don't think so. She did just fine.
no i didnt i was careful to not say exactly what response was suitable. I gave examples what might be some optional reactions but also said it was situation dependent. I do not believe a knee to the nuts was an ok response.
So the question then becomes - should she have caused the loss of fertility or indeed loss of a testicle - what would HIS parents be saying about the incident?
Testicular Trauma[^]
I think its best if we agree to disagree.
Bryce
MCAD
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bryce wrote: No thats not ok either. I think I've been clear on all of this
Right. My counter point was rediculous, I just wanted to make sure I got my point across.
bryce wrote: My point was that society encourages girls to overreact and knee the boy in the nuts.
Yeah, I understood that. I was just saying that I don't think it was an overreaction.
bryce wrote: no i didnt i was careful to not say exactly what response was suitable.
Right, I just wanted to point out that everyone would probably have different opinions in any given situation. It's unclear what is suitable. Many people would agree that her actual reaction was. It's a matter of opinion.
bryce wrote: I think its best if we agree to disagree
Agreed.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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loctrice wrote: My daughter is getting to the preteen age,
That looked strangely worded to me. Strictly speaking, she's been pre-teen since her birth, no...?
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Where I'm from, preteen is generally understood as 11 and 12. My daughter turned 11 in January.
Elephant elephant elephant, sunshine sunshine sunshine
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I know exactly what you're saying. I just went literal on you. :-p
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