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Ravi Bhavnani wrote: They're freely available in Canada.
Canada - land of freedom! 
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I think it's a matter of a different foreign policy rather than lack of freedom. IMHO the US and Canada share similar freedoms but have different policies on several key issues. And we also have a mayor who's very entertaining.
/ravi
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We had a crackhead mayor[^] back in the '90's. As usual Canada is coping America decades after the fact and then patting itself on the back for being so clever. 
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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I remember Marion Barry - comeback kid! 
/ravi
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Back in real life, when I was a chemist, I was very offended at the existence of H-1B visas.
At that time, at least, it was used as a way to higher (=import) employees far below the market value of such credentials. Often so specific that it would be surprising if more than one person in the world could possibly fulfill them.
The technique the employers would use is put out a set of very specific requirements and accomplishment that, were a native/citizen capable of having would command a huge salary.
This artificial specificity was tailor made for a particular person they wanted to hire (perhaps a post-doc). The requirements that a US citizen be given first opportunity for the job was met - but in an obnoxious and cynical manner. So the letter of the law was met. The company got an indentured servant for an employee and a US citizen continued on their job search.
It's decades later, but this sore spot that will not easily heal.
| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Yeah, I hear where you are coming from. I've heard similar stories from others before. Today though, the choice is sometimes between outsourcing the job to a team that's offshore or bringing an H-1B worker over here. Often it's a combination, where the teams are offshore and their leads are onshore on H-1Bs.
That said, the focus of my thread is that companies like Microsoft, Facebook, and Google have good salaries and they do not pay lower salaries to H-1B employees. In their case, the visas are for genuine reasons.
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I didn't come in with an H-1B, but I had left the company and wanted to come back. I called one of my former bosses to see how this could work out and he said that they were in the middle of a big layoff and were required to offer any job openings to any qualified person on the layoff list (the operative word here is "qualified"). He wanted me to send him a complete detailed Resume that listed every thing that I had done for the company in the 15 years that I had worked for them (hardware development and software development) including my current qualifications (going back to GE/Honeywell, currently working on IBM). I sent him a detailed 6 page Resume and he wrote up an RFP that only one person in the whole world could fulfill. I got the job.
Dave.
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Nish Sivakumar wrote: 113K, Google's is 126K, Oracle's 113, Amazon has 109K, Apple pays a nice 130K, Facebook 123K, and here's a surprise, Walmart pays 113K average
This is a lot of money !! $110K are about €80K, this is middle management salary level in the area (Germany), or high management in France. What are these people doing ? Are the salaries that high in the US ? 
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus
Entropy isn't what it used to.
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Rage wrote: This is a lot of money !! $110K are about €80K, this is middle management salary level in the area (Germany), or high management in France. What are these people doing ? Are the salaries that high in the US ?
No, these are some high-range salaries, specially for software engineers. That's why I felt they were eye opening, the stats. People complain about Microsoft and Google lowering salaries by bringing in cheap foreign labor, but it does not seem to be so.
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Well, by paying these people that much, they might have to lower others' people salaries
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus
Entropy isn't what it used to.
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I thought they did it by playing games with national borders and the tax men. 
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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That's more than you'd get paid in most of the US; but is roughly in line with what top tech companies on the west coast are paying their native developers. Keep in mind that California is a stupidly expensive place to live. Very high taxes (by US standards anyway); and rent can easily be a few thousand dollars/month in the cities.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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When I moved to the U.S. 15 years ago, it was on a TN visa; my employer was successful in getting an H-1B visa for me and I've been here since then.
While others have commented on the selective wording of job requirements to limit potential candidates, that was not the case with mine.
The job details were: OpenVMS, Fortran, FMS Forms, database access (Ingres was used, but it was more concept than specific platform).
Despite posting the job for 2 years, no one else applied. Many of the people I worked with shunned such jobs because they didn't want to work with 'old' technology, they only wanted the latest and greatest.
Tim
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Tim Carmichael wrote: they didn't want to work with 'old' technology
Knowing how to deal with old technology is very valuable nowadays:
Ever heard the story of the giant ship engine that failed? The ship's owners tried one expert after another, but none of them could figure but how to fix the engine. Then they brought in an old man who had been fixing ships since he was a youngster. He carried a large bag of tools with him, and when he arrived, he immediately went to work. He nspected the engine very carefully, top to bottom.
Two of the ship's owners were there, watching this man, hoping he would know what to do. After looking things over, the old man reached into his bag and pulled out a small hammer. He gently tapped something. Instantly, the engine lurched into life. He carefully put his hammer away. The engine was fixed! A week later, the owners received a bill from the old man for ten thousand dollars.
"What?!" the owners exclaimed. "He hardly did anything!"
So they wrote the old man a note saying, "Please send us an itemized bill."
The man sent a bill that read:
Tapping with a hammer ........................... $ 2.00
Knowing where to tap ............................ $ 9,998.00
~RaGE();
I think words like 'destiny' are a way of trying to find order where none exists. - Christian Graus
Entropy isn't what it used to.
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Well, I've been involved in hiring on multiple occasions in the past decade or so, and it is extremely difficult to hire skilled talent in the States. I know there is a 3-4% unemployment rate among IT folks, but without wanting to sound rude, I've gotta say those people are probably not very good at what they are doing. There are good people, but they don't frequently change jobs and may not be available in the city you are recruiting for.
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I agree; this position was in the Charlotte, NC region, so there were plenty of people to draw from.
Although I am no longer at that position, I stay in touch with the people there. They are still having trouble recruiting IT staff because, even though it is now 'new' technology: .NET, SQL Server, Business Objects, people don't want to compute to a manufacturing plant when they can work in an office building in a major city.
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Tim Carmichael wrote: when they can work in an office building in a major city
I never got it. Sure, you have a nice corner office with a view on the 17th floor. But you pay for it with $150/month covered parking, 90-120 minutes daily commute in congested traffic, and expensive downtown restaurant eating.
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I took this position, in Charlotte, in the office tower, in downtown, because I get to work with a product I truly enjoy (and a nice wage increase).
I choose to park 1/2 mile away ($3.00 per day) and walk (good exercise), bring leftovers for lunch (only go out to lunch once a week) and the commute was only slightly longer than what I had, but in a different direction. I use a secondary highway and avoid the interstate like the plague. I get to work about 7:00 AM and leave at 3:30, avoiding the bulk of the congestion.
So, for me, it was a win-win.
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Tim Carmichael wrote: So, for me, it was a win-win
Sounds like it 
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even at 7am I suspect there'd be multiple months where it was hot and humid enough that I'd need to shower after getting into the office before I was fit for human interaction. *shudder*
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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As long as where I'm sitting is air conditioned and reasonably quiet I could care less* what the other 90% of the building was doing. NC's climate OTOH...  ... give me a nice blizzard any day.
* Doing so would be very hard and highly improbable, but not quite impossible. 
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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Dan Neely wrote: I could care less*
Typo-fix : couldn't care less you mean.
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No. I wrote exactly what I meant to. If you're going to be an annoying pedant you should be obligated to read the footnotes first; and the snark I left there should've made it clear that I didn't make a mistake.
Did you ever see history portrayed as an old man with a wise brow and pulseless heart, waging all things in the balance of reason?
Is not rather the genius of history like an eternal, imploring maiden, full of fire, with a burning heart and flaming soul, humanly warm and humanly beautiful?
--Zachris Topelius
Training a telescope on one’s own belly button will only reveal lint. You like that? You go right on staring at it. I prefer looking at galaxies.
-- Sarah Hoyt
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Dan Neely wrote: If you're going to be an annoying pedant you should be obligated to read the footnotes first;
Alright, my bad. I missed your footnote, and I blame it on the multiple quotes in your sig, they kinda obscured the footnote.
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Yes it's those stubborn developers who refuse to change jobs and has nothing to do with the FACT that companies are actively colluding to hold down wages of developers. This is not a subject for debate the tech firms actually wrote it down as official policy.
Companies Colluding
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