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I ignored other people's opinions over Vista, and ended up having to do a lot of work to make Vista behave (which was worth it, because, properly configured, Vista was a lot better than XP).
I ignored other people's opinions over w8, and ended up having to do way more work than I'd had to do with Vista (which was Not worth it, because it was still less usable than weven).
None of that extra work should have been necessary. The operating system has one job: to allow access to hardware and programs. All the extra "add-ons" cause about half the problems, and the inability of the OS to do its one job well cause the rest.
I didn't ignore people's opinions over winio, but still ended up with a winio tablet ... and it turns out that the other people were right again. I love having a tablet that can run windows-based programs, but I absolutely detest the way the operating system treats the machine -- and by proxy, me.
The thing is, it's not MS haters complaining about Vista, w8, and winio, it's people like me, who have been ardent MS supporters for years. The @rseholes and the linux evangelists who just want to bitch aren't worth listening to, but those people are.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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den2k88 wrote: Reviews, experience from my peers, system requirements, complains, look&feel.
That's what I've heard too. Most folks, especially the anti-Windows folks tell the same story.
I know there are imperfections and I haven't upgraded to Win 10 yet because of it, or because of what I've heard from others. I'm just too busy to do the update. 
Today, I'm about to update it to Win 10 because I need to test out the docker support for .net core. So fingers cross. 
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Vincent Maverick Durano wrote: So fingers cross.
Think about that - why would you need to worry even a little?
Well - maybe your expectations are low due to the experience of others - apparently people's who's description of their experience you trust?
Some (anti-Windows you call them) accept that they don't need to have their house burn down to understand the danger of playing with fire.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: why would you need to worry even a little?
Of course worrying a bit is normal as it could break my existing working app that is running in previous version.
W∴ Balboos wrote: Well - maybe your expectations are low due to the experience of others - apparently people's who's description of their experience you trust?
I don't trust anyone. I can't even trust myself sometimes
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I'm not anti-Windows at all - I've been, in the past, as a teenager discovering Linux.
Now I consider myself an engineer, I choose what I deem to be best for the objective. Also, as a developer, I adore Windows API, it's 10 times more powerful than standard POSIX and under *nix outside of POSIX there is just an enormous junkyard of incomplete and incompatible libraries and frameworks. Thanks but no thanks.
I stick to my experiences of upgrading from 3.1 to 95 to 95 OSR2 to NT4 to 98 to 98SE to ME to XP... Most of the times I had a burning axe due to early upgrades, now I can usually sit comfortably. Also true for drivers, most of the times I had to zero my Pc and rebuild was due to upgrades that solved none of the problems I had but created Hell-On-Wheels for me instead.
My mantra now is: do not change what works. Either it solves a problem you are experiencing or it adds a functionality you utterly need, or upgrades are moot.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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I upgraded to Win 10 and have never had a problem with it. Maybe because I don't play any games - only use it for development and browsing.
Sure it needs a bit of tweaking to make it behave but with Classic Shell installed because I don't like tiles basically all the rest is exactly the same under the hood, apart from very minor differences, to XP.
My laptop is Win 10 now and also my tablet so I guess I have embraced Windows 10!
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Vincent Maverick Durano wrote: Most folks, especially the anti-Windows folks tell the same story.
Couldn't care less about the anti Windwos folks. They aren't the ones who did upgrade before the free upgrade presumably ran out and posted about the resulting issues. Those who did upgrade early are not the anti Windows folks, or else they wouldn't have run Windows before the upgrade.
I ran Windows 8 (home) on my laptop for more than a year and hated it. And I'm not even talking about the UI (I did install ClassicShell). I'm talking about missing baseline apps, forced upgrades at inopportune moments (e. g. at 5% battery power without a power outlet in reach), repeated resets of system settings to M$ defaults, and an entirely messed up configuration system that made restoring the settings to my preferences a pita.
I never upgraded to 8.1 because it fixed none of the issues I had, but introduced even more telemetry spying than 8.0 already had, with less control. It added back a few of the utilities 8.0 removed, but instead of just adding back the old programs, they came back as apps with considerably reduced functionality.
I had a look at W10, but the forced updates are a killer for me, based on my own past experience with forced updates in 8.0. The settings and configurations are better than in W 8, but still too much spread out, and therefore considerably worse than they are in W 7. I do hate the parts of the system that use the flat design, and sometimes you just can't avoid it: flat means it's harder to distinguish which widget has the focus, and which parts of the UI are in fact actionable elements. I have no idea why anyone would think this is a good design: it definitely decreases discoverability! E. g. when there's a list of items at the left side of the window, I have no way to tell what clicking on ony of them will do, if at all. Depending on the context, it may do nothing, invoke some function, or switch the window to a different tab or sub menu. I'ts all trial and error.
And let's not talk about telemetry and other data being sent back to MS: not only is it impossible to switch it all off (MS confirmed as much), the settings that do reduce the data stream are spread out all over the system (like so many other things that you'd think should be treated on a single settings page). Just to be clear: I don't mind so much that Microsoft can take a look at this information, not even that any US-based three letter org may force them to hand that data over. What I do mind about is that sooner or later even MS will be hacked, and then all bets are off who gets to lay their grubby fingers on my personal data! I don't want any company to store anything about me, beyond the bare minimum they require to do business with me. I do understand that these companies do have good reasons to ask for these data, and to want to store them for analysis or whatnot, but they should also understand and accept my preference to play safe!
GOTOs are a bit like wire coat hangers: they tend to breed in the darkness, such that where there once were few, eventually there are many, and the program's architecture collapses beneath them. (Fran Poretto)
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The trouble is all the people who are happy with Windows 10 tend not to make a fuss and write on forums about it. So because a few people complain you assume (wrongly) it sucks. The reality is that Windows 10 is quite stable, and has a much better look and feel than 8/8.1. Windows 7 might have been a more comfortable experience, but 10 does not take a lot of getting used to. There are things I am not keen on but overall it does what I want.
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Compatibility with old SW and old games? Like VisualStudio 6 (stuck to using it) and games prior to 2002?
I see many many reports of non functionality under the games review themselves, not considering that I'd have to change machine to have Win10 running fluidly enough. Big no for now.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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You are free to make your own decisions - as are we all. But that does not mean that 10 is bad per se, it just does not match your requirements.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote: that does not mean that 10 is bad per se
I never stated that, even if there is a shift of paradigm towards apps and Saas that I really don't like. Also the "all the world is a tablet", no it's not and yes I want my desktop as it was in 7.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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den2k88 wrote: I never stated that
Really?
In Messages/5303490[^]
you wrote: I know Win10 sucks hard ...
. I would say that's a pretty strong statement.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote: The reality is that Windows 10 is quite stable
I haven't found that.
It hides the some of the application crashes (particularly explorer.exe -- check your logs) better, by putting up screenshots of what was on the screen when it crashed, but the number of "unplanned" reboots is ridiculously high for a modern OS (i.e. often more than once a week). And that's not counting the "I'm updating! Screw you!" reboots.
Granted, I only have it on a tablet, but that's what it's designed for ("MOBILE FIRST!") No way would I risk "upgrading" any of my actual computers to it -- even the w8 lappie.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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No, none, not happened.
Sorry, but my experience is that Windows 10 is very stable, and does not make arbitrary decisions to reboot while I am in the middle of doing something important*. My version obviously has a major flaw compared to nearly everyone else in this thread; and that is still a very small percentage of Windows 10 users worldwide.
*Not that much of what I do could really be described as important anyway.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote: my experience is that Windows 10 is very stable, and does not make arbitrary decisions to reboot while I am in the middle of doing something important
It hasn't done it while I've had it in my hand, but I've many times picked it up after 10 mins to half an hour to find that nothing is running because it's clean booted.
I haven't spent any time investigating why, because it's not a "vital" piece of kit -- but I won't risk the same experience on kit that is vital.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I have W10 on PC, notebook and tablet. No unplanned reboots, no crashes, no problems. Maybe I am just lucky! 
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You might want to give win 10 a try. Even win 8. What was so bad about either one of them, other than MS trying to force it down our throats.
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I use Windows 10 Pro at home and to be honest I have never had a problem with it. I've moaned at the way it updates itself but then I've moaned in one way or another with any windows OS since Windows 95a.
Only stable platform I've ever used is Windows NT4
Every day, thousands of innocent plants are killed by vegetarians.
Help end the violence EAT BACON
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Richard Deeming wrote: how can you be so certain that they suck?
Because he saw this [^]
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In my family circle we all use Windows 10. Yes, it has a few idiosyncrasies, but let the OS with no problems cast the first stone. I am quite satisfied with it. You just need to turn off the setting that lets apps display those pesky commercials on your machine.
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
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In mine we all use Win7 and no troubles or apps or idiocies like that. I'd like to disable the whole "app" concept on my machine.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
When I was six, there were no ones and zeroes - only zeroes. And not all of them worked. -- Ravi Bhavnani
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One of the things I really hated about windows 8 was that it was designed for a tablet, and they forgot that people with PCs have big screens and maybe multiple screens and do not want the application to take over the whole window. How stupid can those people at Microsoft be. Well tells me something about Ballmer to give us that horror. They also keep moving things, and making it hard for people. I still think the move to the Ribbon was done horribly. Really just a fancy tool window. Funny I keep seeing menus on web pages. Guess they are more useful than Microsoft thought. Again what can I say about Ballmer. He was also the one in charge when they basically killed both Silverlight and WPF.
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Clifford Nelson wrote: I still think the move to the Ribbon was done horribly
If I was given a chance to rid the world of the Metro Modern Flavor of the Week UI, at the cost of having to bring back the Ribbon menus...I'd say good riddance to Metro.
Seriously, it took us how long to go from mono, then CGA, EGA, VGA and get to 32-bit color and 1080p displays to get standardized, and now somebody's decided everything should be huge and monochromatic?
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Yes Metro was another stupid decision, and you are right. It looked horrible. I liked that about the time Microsoft came out with Metro, everybody else was going away from it because they finally could.
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Clifford Nelson wrote: It looked horrible
Why the past tense? It still does.
Clifford Nelson wrote: everybody else was going away from it because they finally could.
Are you sure about that?
I remember at the time iOS 7 came out, people were complaining that Apple was dumping its long-established gaudy faux-leather/brushed aluminum/everything shiny look they had been using forever and was adopting the "simplified"/flattened look that was just starting to become common back then (roughly Win8's introduction timeframe).
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