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I think when it comes to cost it's important to factor in technical debt and the cost of a poorly designed database.
In my experience Access actively encourages poor database design as it is so easy to set up badly.
The point you make about Access being used as a front end is a good one - it's the equivalent of a poor man's WinForms setup(that is it doesn't necessarily require someone with software development experience to set it up) although it does carry with it some problems such as VBA.
I think until Access has something like transaction logging I would not consider it as a database platform on which to base a medium sized upwards business.
“That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence.”
― Christopher Hitchens
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Kevin, as with all projects, determine the clients needs, then see if the existing solution meets those needs. Changing a solution just because the current solution 'sucks' in your opinion (and many others I realize) is not a real answer. If it is a small office and Access is doing it's job with minimal issues, then why force them through the change? You could suggest an upgrade path to them of migrating the backend to MS SQL (or Express) or another database (speed, stability) and then going after the front end. We use a custom app that is Access based and are currently migrating to MS SQL as the backend. We've gotten around the updating issue by forcing a copy of the front end to each user when they start the app. That way they always have the latest code and no user is more than a day away from an update or fix (or a simple exit and restart). Personally, if I had my choice, I'd convert the front end to a rich web app with the SQL backend. Eventually we'll get there, but cost is always an issue.
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If they aren't feeling any pain you're not likely to get them off Access. The pain points I've seen in the past are patches that screw it up, locking behaviors that affect other users, and network slowdowns due to Access' habit of pulling records down to work on them. That behavior may have been mitigated by now, I don't know.
The only practical way to approach this in a business environment is figure out where their pain points are. If there aren't any, you're kinda stuck. 
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Here's a thought. Rewrite the UI/logic against the current Access database, but use generic data objects such as oledb which will work with Access, SQL Server, MySQL, etc. There's a real advantage to being able to being able to run an application against more than one type of database.
I've done this for many years with the majority of my company's business apps/modules which can run against Access or SQL Server depending on the user's needs.
A real benefit of this approach is the ability to grab (downsize/ftp) a sql-based client's database for troubleshooting and quick response. (vs. getting a dba involved)
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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How do you sell a wholesale replacement of one technology with another. And Describe the other.
Access has UPSIDES (backups are trivial, copy the file(s)), users can jump in and write reports, look at data, etc.
But I have replaced it in the past, with:
- MSSQL
- MySQL
- SQLite
What is your target technology? Is it truly a multi-user application.
Downsides to Access:
- Tied to MS OFFICE (upgrades can break it)
- Requires additional licenses (these can get expensive)
- Mutli-User issues if not designed for it
- Size/Scalability
- HOURS of work to do pretty trivial things
As an owner, you have to show me:
1) I will get my changes faster/easier
2) I will be more secure/safe/backed up
3) I will not lose a critical feature (like writing our own reports, if we do)
4) The savings in the future will more than pay for it.
If you can't do that. Then there is no ROI on this change. It is a change to
make a programmer happy, in a world where people barely want to make users happy!
HTH
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- Requires additional licenses (these can get expensive)
Not if you install Access runtime licences
=========================================================
I'm an optoholic - my glass is always half full of vodka.
=========================================================
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Apple has continued (IMO) down the path of releasing software that doesn't live up to the beauty of their hardware. I updated my iPhone 6 to iOS 11 and put up with the first week of slowness, and crashes, and poor battery life, but even after an acceptable period of burn in the phone is just awful to use now. Apps can take 5-10 seconds to load. The camera can take even longer to be ready to roll. It's a huge shame, really.
Even so I'm not willing to move to Android for a bunch of reasons and there's really no alternative, so I've been thinking about moving up to a (relatively) cheap 7. That means I'm going to lose my headphone jack. I'm getting the shakes thinking about that.
Lots of phones have now gone jackless so I was wondering if this has generally been a good thing or a bad thing or a meh thing.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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Chris Maunder wrote: Lots of phones have now gone jackless
Because the manufacturers don't know jack...?
Seriously, Android phones typically work fine with Bluetooth earphones, but I don't know if iPhones do so. It would be just like Apple to lock you in to their solution. 
If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack.
--Winston Churchill
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I'd be getting airpods, and any bluetooth headphones will work.
I guess my question is: has anyone gone into this thinking it would be an utter PITA and come out wondering what all the fuss was about. Or, did they go into it thinking it would be OK but there were all these "ah, I didn't think about that" issues.
I really just wish the iPhone was USB-C.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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Chris Maunder wrote: and any bluetooth headphones will work.
Yes, but not as well, sound quality over A2DP sucks. And while Apt-X is ok-ish, it's of course not supported by Apple. Since it wasn't invented by them.
Apple uses lowish bitrate AAC which is better than A2DP but still inferior to Apt-x.
Personally I'm having a pair of Sennheiser Momentum, which was a compromise on a few parameters. (comfort came out as the winner, had I gone for sound I would've chosen Bowers&Wilkins P7)
They support Apt-x but I'm actually using them with the cable most of the time, since the sound get's so much clearer and less compressed.
But if you're getting earpods this whole discussion on sound quality is moot.
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I'm getting these:
ATH-DSR7BT
for christmas, they probably won't need a cable to sound awesome.
modified 20-Oct-19 21:02pm.
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Oh bugger, I wish these had been around when I bought mine. 
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My main problem with going jackless is that I now have two sets of things to charge: The phone, and teh earbuds/headphones. They never seem to be in synch, so I am always recharging things over night, whether they need it or not. The headphones I use at work (Bose) can go for several days, but the little earbuds (also Bose) may not last the day.
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, navigate a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects! - Lazarus Long
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I found it funny that it started out with an ad for the windows phone. Even Bill gave up on that and went android.
(Not that I minded mine, other than MS could never manage to actually fix a bug).
Common sense is admitting there is cause and effect and that you can exert some control over what you understand.
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(disclaimer, I still have an iPhone 6)
I've been using it with an Senheiser HD1 for a few months now with good results. (edit: I've had bluetooth connection pre-iOS 11, but now everything's nice)
It's not the smallest or cheapest wireless in-ear headphones, but it has pretty good battery life (which is my main requirements with any electronics) and the sound "profile" fits my hearing.
I don't have any particular problem with iOS 11 on my iPhone 6; I don't have the need right now to upgrade, and I will be waiting for the iPhoneX reviews and decide if an iPhone 8 or X will be the next one.
I'd rather be phishing!
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I hear you can get a Windows Phone pretty cheap these days! 
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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Did you?
I already bought my Lumia 640 about a year ago, unlocked, $120, with taxes, and delivered at my door. The only Lumias I can still find today are way more expensive, now that MS has pretty much made it official they weren't putting more money into it.
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dandy72 wrote: Did you?
Yep, I got about the same deal you mentioned...took the last Lumia they had. It works just fine for me...and I don't have to answer any iQuestions or fix any iProblems from the wife and entire rest of iFamily.
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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Recently?
All I can find right now is overpriced. I wouldn't mind a spare.
It's really a recurring pattern for me - I bought my first-ever Zune when MS pulled the plug on it and the local stores were trying to get rid of their inventory.
However long ago that was - I don't remember. But the silly thing is still going strong, and I use it daily to listen to podcasts. I'm surprised even the battery has lasted this long. Any iThing would've broken long ago if it would've been dropped on a hardwood floor or concrete patio as often as my Zune has.
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dandy72 wrote: Recently?
No, back in February so 8 months ago. I know for certain that it was the last one in stock at the store I visited. The salesman kept asking me if I was sure I wanted a WinPhone.
I was sad to find that it had half of the memory of my old Lumia...then I found out this model has an expansion slot and added a 64GB card! 
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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@chris-maunder, I've used wired and wireless with my Apple iPhone 5, 5s, 6s Plus and 7s Plus.
iOS 11 is *clearly* optimized for iPhone 8.
I confidently conclude iOS 11 is purposely degraded for iPhones less than v8. My SpecBench marks validate this. I'm in the process of writing some further code tests to validate and publish my results.
The larger Dre Beats are great for "office", drowns out office noise.
AirPods are great for 'on the go'.
The problem with wireless, just like yer phone, is keeping track of keepin' 'em charged. I'd invest in the damned lightening to 2.5" audio jack converter, but ya can't charge yer damned iPhone with that devil of an adapter plugged in.
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MacSpudster wrote: I confidently conclude iOS 11 is purposely degraded for iPhones less than v8
Dave and I had exactly this conversation today. I'd love to see your findings (as would the media at large)
MacSpudster wrote: keeping track of keepin' 'em charged
Yep. I'd be using the pods for calls when I need to charge the phone, or for when I'm driving and don't want to go on speakerphone. Not too often but often enough in situations where I definitely need the phone being charged at the same time (eg GPS running in car, or long days on the phone that kills the battery)
cheers
Chris Maunder
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My findings thus far are proving me opposite. 
The firmware (and hardware) in iPhone 8 & X, at my first code run, is more 'optimized' for iOS 11 than firmware for earlier iPhones, which is valid/reasonable.
And, really, this is true of any Mac, iPod, iPad, iPhone and its corresponding OS going back decades, of which I can attest given I've been involved in validating the Golden Master release of MacOS and/or the initial PowerMacs once upon a time back in my Apple dayz...
That, and Mac clones like StarMax & Power Computing validate this as well with all the engineering problems they had with the ROM (firmware), especially keeping up with the latest Mac OS. Macintosh clone - Wikipedia[^]
Yet, the older geezer-ish-ness in me isn't liking that, in 2000, I'd buy a cellphone for $79 ~ $129 and it'd last 4+ years, and now its $1200 (iPhone X) for about 18-22 months. 
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MacSpudster wrote: The firmware (and hardware) in iPhone 8 & X, at my first code run, is more 'optimized' for iOS 11 than firmware for earlier iPhones
That makes sense, but if iOS 11 is slower than 10 then it goes against Apple saying it's faster than iOS 10. They may be accurate, but only on iPhone 8+, which means they are lying by omission.
And seriously: if we started suing tech companies for lying by omission then (a) the world would be a more accurate place, and (b) there'd be no tech companies left.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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