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Thanks for your thoughts on this but I have to be honest. I don't think setting the default to Minor Change is the way to go. We either need some very clever way to determine this programmatically or have the editor make an explicit choice. 
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You are right. I just thought from the point of view of an average user. I didn't have the perspective of expert users. I think luc's ideas are much better (if not the best aproach) to make it.
Regards.
--------
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpfull answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Great! Glad we're all agreed
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Hi,
I have had for a time the issue that I can not vote messages in forums when I am at work, because of proxy/firewall of the firm. But in the new "Quick Answers" I haven't got this problem.
I am just curious, why is that? what is different?
Regards.
--------
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpfull answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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With quick answers, each query works like if it were an article. With our regular message boards, you'll be voting on a post. (I may be wrong though...)
“Follow your bliss.” – Joseph Campbell
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Are you seeing an error when you try to vote? (either javascript error or site error?)
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Now that I am at home, I can see all and I can vote (5 to your message is mine), but at work... I don't get any explicit error, I can't just see the buttons to vote. I only get a generic error at the bottom-left of the explorer with "Error on the site" (or however it is said on the english version, mine is german and says "Fehler auf der Seite")
I have just noticed as well that, when I am surfing between messages in the forum, at work it is much slower than at home. Here I don't practically see anything when I go from one message to another. At work it reloads the forum-page when changing between messages. I guess I can't do anything, it very probably depends on Proxy/Firewall settings in the company, not in my computer.
I am using Internet Explorer 7, Windows XP SP2.
Thanks anyways.
Regards.
--------
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpfull answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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The quick answers faq says that the old style technical forums will be eventually "closed". Why on earth would this need to be done?!
I think that the Quick answers thing is a good initiative and I've put efforts from my side (whatever little may it be) and have been giving suggestions, reporting bugs, participating in the thing, etc., hoping to make it better. But not did I have the faintest idea of how this is going to "replace" the threaded style forums.
If I should give a very honest opinion, I think that the quick answers thing *still* sucks massive hairy balls and would take may be umm... a long time to become a replacement for the threaded style programming forums, if at at all, ever. The threaded style forums has evolved over a long period of time, is time tested and is proven to work just right.
There are several issues with the Quick Answers thing (What's it? call it a "thing"?):
- The enquirers themselves post their further queries as "Answers". There's no way you could control this or make each and every one of them understand how exactly is this thing is supposed to be used. No, they won't read an FAQ. Not all of them at least. And there are too many of them. This will never happen with the existing system.
- There are multiple issues with tagging. There's no way, for example, to add a new tag or edit an existing one to make it better.
- I cannot remove a query (duplicates, urgnz pls code sndz, clueless, etc.,).
- If I ask a query to the enquirer (even if I ask it in the message board at the bottom), the enquirer posts the clarification to my query as an "answer". I'm sick of this, because I'm not being notified. OK, I know you guys will possibly let me subscribe to the thread, but I want to be notified ONLY if the OP provides clarifications to my query, please. Not if someone adds another answer, or if the query itself was modified to add more information. The existing system is absolutely the best when looked at how it deals with this issue! The possibility of anyone screwing it up is very less.
- I see people with absolutley no clue of C++ will "answer" C++ queries (like, "Hey, I'm not going to do your homework"). Well, if CG says it, I'll buy it because he actually can *do* that C++ homework if he desires to. However, I've seen numerous people, who've never visited the C++ forum, will answer a c++ query, ONLY to tell that they won't do homework (I'll mention some of those queries were actually NOT homework, but people take it up on themselves). Add clutter to the query, and add 10 to their reputation! Awesomeness! This won't happen with the forums, because they won't dare visiting the C++ forum. This is not exclusive to the C++ queries alone. I'm not saying they are wrong or right, but this is how this new "system" works.
- This one is VERY important - with the threaded style, I can just go on answering queries one after another, without having to navigate away from a page. Unless I've reached the end of one page. With quick answers, each question is an "article", no matter how sh*tty, rubbish or clueless it is. I've to visit that particular page and answer it. With the forum style, even the most clueless person will know how to give me clarification (by "reply"ing to my post), when I ask for it!
- I see this new system has taken a large amount of inspiration from stackoverflow. Good, but there's no need to make this place as an exact replica of SO. I love the threaded style forums at CP, and that's why I'm here. If this becomes another copy of SO, I might just go to SO as well. I'm (and many more are, I guess) at CP because of the threaded style UI, which makes navigating through queries a breeze. I think that there's no mandate to "improve" something that is already pretty good, unless you're making it better. Unless you're going to follow the footsteps of MS and do what they did to XP, "improving" it to Vista.
*We* are the people using it, so I'd doubt if you should take any drastic steps like shutting down the threaded style forums without taking in our opinions.
I haven't given any solid feedback that you people can use to make the Q/A better, or even the existing forums better. But I will post you guys, as and when I get ideas and/or encounter bugs. But my idea of creating this thread is to let you guys know of what I think of the new system as a replacement to the existing one.
There are several improvements that can be done to the threaded style forums, and I (and others too) may give their feedback and opinion on this. But I do not wish to waste a minute of my time if it's been decided to be shut down.
I'm not discouraging the new system. But I'm saying that we can have both systems side by side, at least for now. We can talk! Say what? A poll, perhaps? Or a sticky right here with a link to the discussion on this? I'm sure the new system is no match for the threaded forums.
“Follow your bliss.” – Joseph Campbell
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I agree 100% with Rajesh's comments. I find QA far less easy to work with than the existing forums, and also far easier to abuse by posters who may not understand the rules and, as Rajesh points out, simply don't bother to read the FAQ.
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+ 1
Regards.
--------
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpfull answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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I'll agree with the sentiment that once we the users are happy then it is time to move on, but the new Q&A is still flawed.
I have to say I like the idea, and I am tryuing to be invloved and use it. I generally look at C# and java and my filters are thus set. It's cool from that point of view. Also anyone with enoughn reputation can go in and edit the contributions making them clearer and correcting tipping errors. From that point of view it is better then the old forums.
My view would be to keep a limited number of discussion forums for just that. It's not a question, but if I want to discuss some new language thang then it's the lounge and a flaming or Q&A where it doesn't fit. Can we have a way to add an addendum to prior answers especially for adding details when a new answer is not needed but you don't want to [or can't] change the original post.
Panic, Chaos, Destruction.
My work here is done.
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Rajesh R Subramanian wrote: The enquirers themselves post their further queries as "Answers". There's no way you could control this or make each and every one of them understand how exactly is this thing is supposed to be used
We have given members the ability to delete questions and answers. These clarifications can be rolled into a question and/or answer. We also will change the way the forums interact with the questions and answers to make it more immediate.
Rajesh R Subramanian wrote: no way, for example, to add a new tag or edit an existing one to make it better.
The ability to add new tags is temporarily disabled while we iron out a few bugs and make a small, but difficult and important change that will save everyone a whole lot of time. This will be back on soon.
Rajesh R Subramanian wrote: I cannot remove a query
We're still tweaking the permission levels.
Rajesh R Subramanian wrote: If I ask a query to the enquirer (even if I ask it in the message board at the bottom), the enquirer posts the clarification to my query as an "answer".
Yes, this is related to 1.
Rajesh R Subramanian wrote: I've seen numerous people, who've never visited the C++ forum, will answer a c++ query, ONLY to tell that they won't do homework
We'll give you the rights to delete these posts. They are pointless.
Rajesh R Subramanian wrote: I've to visit that particular page and answer it
I've been thinking about this a lot. There are two main Q and A styles: our thread discussions, and the older BBS forums. Threaded is perfect for discussions, but flat style is better for focussing the activity on getting an answer to a question. Luc has mentioned the lowering of information density on the pages and I agree that we need to increase this, and increase the speed at which you can go through questions.
Options:
1. List all questions, but when you click a question title the question itself (or an abstract) is display. Another click takes you to the page where you can answer. Problem: you can't see the answers
2. List all questions, and when you click a title the question and the top voted answer is shown if one is present.
3. Display all questions and answers in a list like we do with the forums. Questions will have a "Answer" link (which posts an answer), a "Ask for clarification" link which posts a question in the discussion forum.
I really appreciate the feedback here. Quick Answers has been on the drawing board for a long, long time (even before StackOverflow) and was inspired by Yahoo Answers, Microsoft Social, WikiAnswers, and then, of course, StackOverflow.
However, it is not our intention to be any of those, but rather to bring together the best ideas of those systems that work for us. We're only in version 1 (I refuse to do the Google-esque endless beta) which means we have tons of scope to improve.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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Hi Chris,
Just happened to read your reply (but not even fully) and I'm rushing to work now. I'll write a detailed reply later (dunno when).
I just quickly wanted to let you know that I might have sounded prickly and irate, but whatever I say or do is in the best interest of the site (in my (sometimes deluded) opinion).
Also, it appears that you haven't commented about if or not the new system is a supposed replacement for the threaded style forums... What's your take on that?
“Follow your bliss.” – Joseph Campbell
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Rajesh R Subramanian wrote: you haven't commented about if or not the new system is a supposed replacement for the threaded style forums
Let's just say it's a work in progress.
cheers,
Chris Maunder
The Code Project Co-founder
Microsoft C++ MVP
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How about letting the users build their own custom forums. If they want a forum called "C#", they could build a filter for that forum that included any "quick answers" with the appropriate tag. I personally don't care for the Quick Answers feature for a couple of reasons.
0) I don't like seeing all of the various tags (that I might select) mixed together. I might just want to see C#, or WPF, or something like that, not both at the same time, and not the apparent C# "OR" WPF functionality. Having to repeatedly reset the filter to something else is a pain.
1) I don't want people "improving" my original question - or any of my answers. Platinum members should be excluded from this "feature".
I also don't want the threaded forums to go away and be replaced by the Quick Answers.
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
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"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: 1) I don't want people "improving" my original question - or any of my answers. Platinum members should be excluded from this "feature".
I do not think anyone should be excluded. Platinum members are not Gods. They'll make mistakes too, and they'll leave scope for improvement too.
I've corrected some of the 'platinum members' on a few occasions on the forums when they were wrong.
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: I also don't want the threaded forums to go away and be replaced by the Quick Answers.
Totally agreed!
“Follow your bliss.” – Joseph Campbell
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Rajesh R Subramanian wrote: I do not think anyone should be excluded. Platinum members are not Gods. They'll make mistakes too, and they'll leave scope for improvement too.
BUT as platinum members, we should have something to show for our status as far as privileges are concerned on the site (the modified icon is cute, but really, what's the incentive otherwise for gaining that status if we don't gain something in return for our efforts). Immunity from being "improved" by some nimrod is one of the things I think we should get. If you want to correct me (or discuss something), make it part of the thread, but I really do strongly disagree with the idea of someone else changing something I wrote in a technical forum.
I think we have fewer than 100 Platinum members, so I don't think it's too much to ask because it's a pretty exclusive club.
While we're on the topic of extended privileges, I think we (as platinum members) should have the option of including our site avatar on messages too.
.45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly
-----
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
-----
"The staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - J. Jystad, 2001
modified on Wednesday, December 23, 2009 10:53 AM
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: If you want to correct me (or discuss something), make it part of the thread, but I really do strongly disagree with the idea of someone else changing something I wrote in a technical forum.
Then, this probably has something to do with the idea of collaborative editing itself, which is how the existing threaded style forums work. I too think that the new QA style is not a match for the existing system (which is the very essence of this thread I created).
But then again, if something of this sort happens, everyone should be treated equally. However, I'll agree if you say that there must be restrictions on who can edit the posts made by whom.
“Follow your bliss.” – Joseph Campbell
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If I wanted to look in Stack Overflow for an answer, I would.
I go to CP for the articles and forum info. Without having to do constant searches I can find info. The people here tend to not be complete monsters as well.
So reputation will matter for editing answers and such here? You gain rep by answering things. Now let's look at the flaws.
By having ranking by popularity you make downvoting other people a powerful reputation gaining tool.
2 people post about same answer. Gold member A and Bronze member B.
A downvotes B even though B is just as correct. People see the highest voted response is correct. They vote A up. A goes back and gets rid of downvote on B. B doesn't lose any rep, but A gained a ton because no one bothers to read B's answer as it is "obviously" not as good and A has a bunch of votes. B never gains rep.
I've had this happen in SO to me. One of the very few times I could answer something immediately I was downvoted and then upvoted within 2 hours. The other person that answered after me used this tactic to get their answer more votes.
I don't like Stack Overflow. Heck, the fact that a decent chunk of their answers tend to be "You mean like this. (link to a codeproject article here)" makes me chuckle.
Please get rid of the editing incentive on reputation. Otherwise people will be gaming the system just so they can feel cool for being able to edit things.
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ragnaroknrol wrote: By having ranking by popularity you make downvoting other people a powerful reputation gaining tool.
In fact you lose reputation when you down-vote an article, question, etc. Take a look at the Reputation FAQ[^].
As to your scenario in SO I've had a similar problem. I'm not sure how we can avoid it here however. Users looking for an answer typically try to read as little as possible. They'll often go with the first thing that looks right (or is deemed "accepted" by the question author). I don't see how removing reputation for editing content helps this in any way. Or is that not what you meant?
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Even if I lose reputation, what will I gain from having my answer upvoted?
When given any sort of power over other people some folks will abuse it or at least want it to feel special. Allowing high rep people to edit means those folks will be willing to do tricks to get this special status, even if they do nothing but cackle in a dark room while hovering their mouse over the edit button in something they don't like or a user they don't like.
So in this scenario we have a way to downvote an answer, thereby getting more people to see your answer, who will upvote it. People will be lazy and only read the most popular answer, and often will upvote it too. You can change your vote to a positive after you have gotten a lead and so the damage to your own rep is minimal. And finally if you get enough rep you can just plain edit stuff that annoys you or know you could.
It's a recipe for an abused system.
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There's always the worry of users gaming the system no matter how clever or elaborate the design. What we currently have in place is our best efforts on the matter. But I don't think it'd be a good alternative to allow anyone edit. We want to at least avoid the most problematic users from causing too much damage. This system helps in that direction but definitely does not guarantee it.
ragnaroknrol wrote: So in this scenario we have a way to downvote an answer, thereby getting more people to see your answer, who will upvote it
I'd consider this a bug actually. We have a task (thanks to some member) that will place answers with a vote below 3 beneath answers with no vote.
Hope that addresses your concern. 
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My quick-take on the "Quick Answer" :
1. delighted to see CP innovating in this area !
2. think the current state of the forums needs reform because of :
a. lack of participation
b. dependence on the efforts of a few "heroic" responders like Pete and Dave
c. lack of distributed authority to edit and moderate
d. tolerance for frequent i'm-thumbing-my-nose-at-your-ignorance responses.
e. the regular posting of specific technical questions ... for which there are forums ... on the Lounge such as : [^] by some of the most long-time and frequent CP users on a regular basis : as if the forums do not exist, and in violation of the explicit "social ethos" of the Lounge.
As always, I think innovation will result in some pain, and some chaos, and points, like those raised by Rajesh, are very important.
To those on this thread who be-littled, or down-played StackOverFlow, I say : "you're nuts" :
SO is one of the most brilliant and important innovations in social "community" focused around specific issues ever done, as important in its own way, as Wikipedia and CodeProject : imho far eclipsing anything that came before it like Yahoo groups and such, or MS Usenet technical forums. For me it is fun, compelling, and extremely useful, as much a "treasure-trove" as CP Articles.
Please don't think I am "infatuated" with SO; I think I see a vulnerability there in that there is a dependence on the "Herculean" efforts of a few at the the "guru" level, like Jeff Anderton, and Mark Gravell, and Jon Skeet, and system of "badges" seems kind of comical to me, kind reminds me of the "cub scouts" when I was a young boy. What's obvious to me about SO is that "the grass is always mowed" : meaning a lot of effort in real time is going on to edit content and get rid of crap, and clean-up things : imho sustaining that kind of effort in the absence of monetary reward is very difficult, particularly in difficult economic times.
For Ragnarknroll and Thiru, who posted comments based on the very real "dark side" of people's behavior on voting or reward-based forums ("gaming the system"), I'd argue that going overboard in anticpating the "worst possible cases" in users' behavior is as much a mistake as, in software design, building elaborate code to handle the strangest thing stupid or insane users could do to prevent errors.
Let the future come, and let's not under-estimate the intellectual horsepower in the CP community, and the technical expertise in CP core itself, to rapidly innovate and adapt to both promote evolution towards the goals we value, and to create the interactional equivalent of an "immune system" that will handle the "worst cases"
best, Bill
"Many : not conversant with mathematical studies, imagine that because it [the Analytical Engine] is to give results in numerical notation, its processes must consequently be arithmetical, numerical, rather than algebraical and analytical. This is an error. The engine can arrange and combine numerical quantities as if they were letters or any other general symbols; and it fact it might bring out its results in algebraical notation, were provisions made accordingly." Ada, Countess Lovelace, 1844
modified on Tuesday, December 22, 2009 11:54 PM
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BillWoodruff wrote: To those on this thread who be-littled, or down-played StackOverFlow, I say : "you're nuts" :
SO is one of the most brilliant and important innovations in social "community"
A somewhat subjective opinion, and I don't see this as a compelling reason to follow their model. I like the CodeProject forums specifically because of the way questions and answers are displayed. I don't particularly like the SO model, but I have no problem with SO per se. Those of us who prefer the forums are not "nuts", we just have different preference for how we view and respond to Q&As.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote:
A somewhat subjective opinion, and I don't see this as a compelling reason to follow their model.
Hi Richard,
What opinion is not subjective ? I never suggested that I think CP should follow the SO model : you are "reading that into" my words.
Richard MacCutchan wrote:
"Those of us who prefer the forums are not "nuts", we just have different preference for how we view and respond to Q&As."
Again you are "reading something into" my words that is just not there. I did give some specifics for why I thought CP's forums need "reform," in the context of applauding the innovation and change that's going on in the structure of CP forums right now. What do you think the reasons are for CP's forum structure being changed ?
Your excerpt from my post re SO is trimmed so that it is more easily taken "out of context" : I also expressed some doubts about whether SO could sustain where it's at now as it scales up even further.
To say that one should not underestimate the importance of the smashing success of SO, and its technical "brilliance," is not to make a statement about CP at all !
I'd expect Chris and team to come up with something original and brilliant in this area, and I am sure they will. But its "birth pains" and "growing up" pains may be ... some pains, as is the case with all real innovation.
best, Bill
"Many : not conversant with mathematical studies, imagine that because it [the Analytical Engine] is to give results in numerical notation, its processes must consequently be arithmetical, numerical, rather than algebraical and analytical. This is an error. The engine can arrange and combine numerical quantities as if they were letters or any other general symbols; and it fact it might bring out its results in algebraical notation, were provisions made accordingly." Ada, Countess Lovelace, 1844
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