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OriginalGriff wrote: and one or two contracts have gone further and claimed ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well
That's ridiculous... And, as you say, almost impossible to check.
Of course you shouldn't write articles while employed... 
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Their attitude was that they don't pay developers by the hour; they pay by the month, so anything you did during that month was theirs!
I did ask if I should take a plastic bag with me on bathroom visits, but just got a stern look... 
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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OriginalGriff wrote:
Their attitude was that they don't pay developers by the hour; they pay by the month, so anything you did during that month was theirs! |
They pay for x hours per month, so anything produced in those x hours can be theirs. What I do outside office hours is none of their business though!
OriginalGriff wrote: I did ask if I should take a plastic bag with me on bathroom visits, but just got a stern look...
Doesn't sound like a company I would want to be working for...
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Do you get overtime payments if you work more than that?
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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Yep. Or I wouldn't be working overtime 
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Lucky devil!
I haven't had paid overtime for decades! 
One company gave me an unexpected pay rise - and a generous one- which purely-by-accident just happened to move me above the 'you don't get paid overtime' threshold... 
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it. --- George Santayana (December 16, 1863 – September 26, 1952)
Those who fail to clear history are doomed to explain it. --- OriginalGriff (February 24, 1959 – ∞)
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To me it's simple, I sign a contract for 40 hours and a salary both my employer and I see fit. That's a salary for 40 hours, not 45 or 50. If I do work 45 or 50 hours I expect to be compensated accordingly.
That said, I do all my work related study in my own time. When my company decided to use Entity Framework I spent some hours at home figuring out how that stuff works.
I'm also not to uptight about working an exact 8 hours a day (like today I wanted to finish something and stayed 15 minutes longer) or getting every extra minute compensated.
And it depends on the employer. If they're getting uptight about something then so will I
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Sander Rossel wrote: What I do outside office hours is none of their business though!
It is if you're doing work that competes with your employers line of business.
I have it written into my contract that I'm not allowed to do other work in the same line of business. Unnecessarily though as it's already in the law.
They can't lay any claims to code you write that's not relevant to them though. What's relevant is obviously a grey area.
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Agreed on that. I was replying to the following:
OriginalGriff wrote: and one or two contracts have gone further and claimed ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well
I think it's totally an employers business what I do in my spare time as long as it concerns them. For example if I drink too much, party too hard or practice extreme sports, and as a result call in sick from work every monday or at least a month a year etc. In the Netherlands the employer pays for sick employees. And they cost A LOT!
Another example is studying (or absolutely no studying!) during my private time.
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Sander Rossel wrote: What I do outside office hours is none of their business though!
That isn't true even in a general way. Certainly not in the US and probably most everywhere else as well.
Lets go through the reasonable cases.
- You commit a felony hate crime Saturday night and the press come knocking at your work to ask about you on Monday. You get fired right then.
- You have a written contract with an company, you are not even an employee, but the contract states that any work in the financial industry belongs to them (any work, any time) and further there is a morals clause that specifically allows them to terminate you if you commit any serious crime. And you fail to meet one or both.
And the unreasonable ones.
- Drugs. You do something Saturday nite and get tested Monday. And you are fired Tuesday for drug use.
- The boss doesn't like you much but keeps you around because he isn't much of a manager, but he did see you on a date with his daughter on Saturday night - so you get fired Saturday.
- You write a letter to the newspaper that gets published on sunday but expressing a political view opposite that of your boss, and you get fired Monday.
- You get a tattoo on Saturday because you have been cancer free for 10 years. You boss doesn't like tattoos, so...
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Yeah, I already commented somewhere that anything you do in your private time, but influences your boss' time is your boss' business.
Most of what you say doesn't hold true in the Netherlands though. You need a VERY good reason to fire an employee, getting a tattoo or not getting along is no good reason...
If you really want to fire an employee (especially when he's been with the company for some time) you better start building a dossier and document every reason to fire that employee. All of them added up might be a good reason, although it's probably still going to cost you a lot of money to have him fired.
If you own a small company with little profit a bad employee can literally ruin you and there's little you can do...
My dad's employer has a few employees who have been sick for at least two years (you know, they do some lifting and strain their back or something) and they're still paying for those people (they can't be fired).
Things work a little different here than in America / (sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse) 
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Sander Rossel wrote: Most of what you say doesn't hold true in the Netherlands though
Fair enough.
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OriginalGriff wrote: ownership of everything produced while employed by them: which covers time outside working hours as well
I had a contract that said that. I queried it - what about PooperPig? "don't be silly, of course that's fine - we just mean work related to what you do in this company"
"Good oh!" quoth I "then change the contract wording."
It took about three or four drafts before I was happy to sign - even though it wouldn't really make a blind bit of difference because, as I understand it, the signature is only absolute proof you have read that copy of the contract - you are still bound by a contract in law regardless as to whether you have signed it, if you continue to work there, unless you can prove that the contract had not completed negotiations. So if they'd just said "tough!" I'd have no option but to accept it or leave.
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My contract contains that but I'm pretty sure it's legally unenforceable outside things done while working. The implication would be that you are working 24/7 and that violates the EU labour rules.
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IBM and another company I worked for once had this provision, but it was eventually admitted and tested in a court case that such claim of ownership of what the employee does on his own time and with his own equipment is invalid.
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As others are saying if written on company time then they own it, but I say how is it licensed? If a piece of software is available to others under a certain license I would say it applies to you as well.
Along with Antimatter and Dark Matter they've discovered the existence of Doesn't Matter which appears to have no effect on the universe whatsoever!
Rich Tennant 5th Wave
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Legally, you probably can't do that (depends, check contract, I've had one that said I could take 30% of the code).
In practice, you can. No one's going to know, and no one's getting hurt so no one has any reason to try to find out if you did anything.
Or at least that was until you posted about it under your real name. Now there would be reason to suspect you.
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harold aptroot wrote: Or at least that was until you posted about it under your real name. Now there would be reason to suspect you.
Oops!
I'm not a thief. I suspect I could take it if I asked. If I can't I'd write something similar in my spare time.
I was just wondering how others thought about the issue and it's pretty much what I thought
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I think as long as the methods are generic code that can be used anywhere, and they're not connected too, or utilizes company proprietary code (usually interface related), you should be okay. I've been given the go ahead to include such methods and techniques in any article I write for CP, as long as I follow the fore-mentioned criteria.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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Nope, I'd have to change some namespaces, but other than that it's pretty generic code. As I said, some of it is taken from the internet.
It's not like I want to take some Controls with our company logo on them
Actually I have thought about writing an article about one of those libraries before.
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Yes, but you are an Outlaw Programmer, that certainly mitigates your obligations a litlle bit. 
[Flags]
public enum Bool {
True, False, ForSure, Maybe, ProbablyNot, Depends, NotDecidedYet, Undefined
}
private interface IShy { }
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If you write a general log in script for a website on company time and then send yourself a copy of that script to use on your own personal website I think ethically you're fine. However, if you make that script available to the competition or compete with your current employer then you've got a problem.
I think the intent of these restrictions is "we don't want our developers writing code for the competition".
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Yeah, I've got an anti-competition clause, or what's it called, in my contract. In my case I can't do anything for a direct competitor while or three years after employment (but who are our competitors?).
That last part goes without saying
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My understanding is that those types of clauses are pretty much unenforceable here in Australia under anti-competitive laws... Once you stop working for a company your obligation to them ceases. Unless they want to pay you until the expiry of the no work clause!!
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_Damian S_ wrote: My understanding is that those types of clauses are pretty much unenforceable here in Australia
Same goes for the Netherlands, but an employer can try...
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