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Yeah, I'm not unsympathetic...they do go way overboard sometimes asking people to put in 'extra'...those places are rightly called 'sweat shops'.
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I agree, but the bigger issue is that working "unbilled" hours will often adversely affect estimates for future projects. The project manager must know the actual time spent for the current project. Remember that "extra" hours spent on the current project are probably due to a bad estimate based upon what was understood from the previous project.
While no estimate will ever be accurate, at least start with good data.
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Sorry, but if the dev is crazy enough to accept more work without moving the planning, then he/she should be bitten by it.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
If you can't read my code, try converting it here[^]
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But the whole team can be bitten.
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What's wrong here is the entire premise of hourly pay.
If you are a contractor and you are charging me for every hour you work - then I want you to be working for every hour you bill. Not having a break, stretching your legs, writing a shopping list or getting on Farcebook.
with a company charging a customer for a job of work, the customer isn't paying for a number of hours - they are paying for a product - and if people need to work longer hours to get the product out the door, then that's a good thing; a happy customer is a good customer.
of course, this shouldn't become a constant requirement of the employer - the next project, folk should be able to chill a little, safe in the knowledge that they have learned from the bad experience, and adjusted their estimates accordingly.
Alaric_ wrote: "heroic effort" to making their screw ups not look like screw ups
so are you saying that, when you screw up, you charge the customer for the time it takes you to fix it?
So, if a plumber comes to fix a washer on your tap, then breaks a pipe and takes all day to fix it, do you just grab your cheque book and hand over a day's work for a 1/2 hour job?
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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_Maxxx_ wrote: so are you saying that, when you screw up, you charge the customer for the time it takes you to fix it?
What I intended to say was salaried development employee commits "heroic effort" to making whoever made an unrealistic promise not look like they made an unrealistic promise
Of course I account for my own mistakes but a lack of proper planning on "your" part does not constitute an emergency on "mine." When sh*t hits the fan because someone walks over to a fan, points their butt directly at it, and then takes a crap into the fan blades, they have absolutely no ability to convince me that I should do any more than the terms I agreed to in my contract say I have committed myself to and operating pooper scoopers ain't my bag, baby; especially on nights and weekends.
_Maxxx_ wrote: f you are a contractor and you are charging me for every hour you work - then I want you to be working for every hour you bill. Not having a break, stretching your legs, writing a shopping list or getting on Farcebook.
...yeah; that's the way that works. I charge for every hour I work. The hour I take in the middle of the day for personal business? Not billable. I'm not entirely sure why you felt the need to provide that explanation.
_Maxxx_ wrote: of course, this shouldn't become a constant requirement of the employer - the next project, folk should be able to chill a little, safe in the knowledge that they have learned from the bad experience, and adjusted their estimates accordingly.
I don't believe in "employers." I have customers, even if -for a time- I work on a W-2 for a single client on multiple projects: they are my customer. I owe them nothing more than I would owe any customer; they can expect nothing more from me than they can expect from the terms of my contract. Decomposing the "employer->employee" relationship to its basic structure where the "employer" is purchasing skill on the market and the "employee" is a single-person entity that supplies said skill to the market, you arrive at these beautiful things called contracts and with slightly more investigation, you realize that every "employee" is really a consultant.
Far too many people treat the "employer->employee" relationship as if the employee is beholden to the employer like a vassal to a lord.
_Maxxx_ wrote: with a company charging a customer for a job of work, the customer isn't paying for a number of hours - they are paying for a product
Wait..are you talking about a company turning around and selling a finished product to an end consumer? What I'm talking about is their production structure. You can't compare the production structure of a good to the marketability of the finished good. That's where entrepreneurship comes into play and that's why business owners deserve to amass as much profit as their ability allows: they have to not only commit capital to the production structure but they are the ones to bear the risk that the end product might not meet the market's expectations. "Profit" to the entrepreneur is their reward for correctly estimating the future at some point in the past when they began their production process. But that is not germane to the discussion at hand.
Within the production structure of that product, said company pays for billable hours because that's how working on a "Time and Materials" basis works. What you are talking about is known as a "Fixed Bid" arrangement.
If you are a salaried employee and your "fixed bid" salaried rate pays you for 40 hours worth of work each week but you deliver more than 40 hours worth of work in that week, you.are.a.FOOL.
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
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OP:
It sounds like you are expecting the salaried employees to work the way you do, which in their case I guess you assume means that they should work a 40-hour week and nothing more.
That's not how it works, salaried employees aren't paid by the hour at all, they are paid to take on a role and do whatever needs to be done. Set work hours are a minimum expectation, if you are on salary then you work evenings and weekends to get things done if necessary, that's part of the job.
If the salaried employees you work with took your advice and refused to work more than 40 hours in a week without extra compensation they'd likely be fired, and for good reason.
I once had to work 18-hour days for two weeks straight to build a banking site that a sales guy had sold but neglected to tell anyone about until two weeks before we had to deliver it. This was at the end of December: I worked through the weekends, I left work to have Christmas dinner with family and then came back to work until 2 in the morning, I worked through New Year's, I worked every waking hour, taking a few hours to sleep, change clothes, and shower. No holiday for me.
Why did I do this? Because a contract had been signed and I was the only one who could deliver. It didn't matter that it wasn't my fault, it didn't matter that it wasn't fair, it was my job. And I didn't get a dime more for doing it. That's pretty extreme and I left that place, but my point is that when you're on salary you don't have a choice about working long hours at times, other than the choice of having a job or not.
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That is ridiculous. See Alaric_ above. If you chose to confer more to a relationship than what actually exists that is on you. Employers/clients do not own you. The only exception to my next statements are scenarios where the developers were given equity - in which case they are enriching themselves with extra effort.
The correct course of action would have been for you to tell them no, and force the sales person to go make a mea culpa - I mean as you said you were the only one who could deliver it; what were they going to do fire you? Sales people will take a mile if you give an inch, it happens all the time regardless if you are in consulting or FTE. It is completely appropriate for you to help educate your sales people on acceptable conduct on their part as well.
You know why they have contracts in writing - because the things in writing are the easiest things to change... changes to contracts happens constantly all day everyday. Changing a contract is not a big deal.
This mind set around working insane hours is I think analogous to the same mind set you see in hazing rituals. "I went through it so you should too", basically complete garbage logically. I have been on death marches - it shouldn't be something people go through.
IT wages haven't gone up in 15 years and people are running around acting like employers did them a favor by hiring them...
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You're blaming the victim for being exploited, and ignoring reality. I work in the American South, where workers have zero rights. Like you say they weren't in a good position to let me go at that time, but they could have punished me in many other ways. The sales guy was let go.
The contract wasn't flexible, the client had to deliver on their end, if we didn't make deadline it meant a lawsuit. I had responsibilities to meet whether I liked it or not, no matter how unfair it was. Refusing would have been insubordinate, pretty much the same as walking out (and believe me, I considered it, even packed up my stuff at one point).
I'm not defending the situation, I'm pointing out the reality of it. We're being exploited, many of us, but not everyone is in a position to refuse unfair assignments. If you want to do something about it, lobby for unionization and fair labor laws, that's the real problem. Expecting people to put their jobs on the line in the hopes that wages will go up and you'll get paid more for fewer hours is total fantasy.
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StatementTerminator wrote: If you want to do something about it, lobby for unionization and fair labor laws, that's the real problem.
I disagree; get rid of the specific concept of "labor laws" altogether because they're already covered by contract law. The only thing that "labor laws" do currently is provide structure to sloppy arrangements where a worker signs to an open contract and then complains about the terms that he ends up signing up for. An open contract makes you a vassal.
"Labor" is fundamentally indiscernible from any product supplied on the market. You are supplying a product (your skill) to a buyer (the company) under specific terms. It is your responsibility to create terms in your favor and it is their responsibility to create terms in their favor.
If either party violates those terms, you have a tortious breach of contract to address with the other party or take to arbitration. There's really no need for any special rules that would not also apply to selling something out of your garage at a garage sale or buying a refrigerator from a store; they are all the same thing.
StatementTerminator wrote: We're being exploited, many of us,
If you voluntarily agree to do something, it's illogical to claim exploitation; you chose it voluntarily because it was your best available option, did you not? I think I understand what you're saying, but I take issue with the word "exploited."
StatementTerminator wrote: Expecting people to put their jobs on the line in the hopes that wages will go up and you'll get paid more for fewer hours is total fantasy.
Why would anyone arrange their affairs in a way in which they become dependent on a single "employer?" The price you can command is directly related to your second best option on the market, because the "best option" merely has to provide a modicum above that to price the second option out. That is what determines the price you can command, so you should always be investigating what other people are willing to pay for your service. If you are selling under market, raise your price! The only input a company has into what I earn is to say "yes, I'll pay that for your services" or "no, that's too steep for my budget." They don't get to tell me what I make; they only get to tell me what they're willing to pay.
"Increasing price while decreasing output" is known as a monopolistic action, and nice work if you can get it.
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
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Alaric_ wrote: If you voluntarily agree to do something, it's illogical to claim exploitation
No, exploitation is "voluntary," otherwise it's slavery.
Alaric_ wrote: If either party violates those terms, you have a tortious breach of contract to address with the other party or take to arbitration.
Um, not where I live, I don't think you understand how employment works in the South. You don't get to negotiate a contract for a permanent salaried position, you only negotiate pay, and your employer can reduce your pay at any time for any reason. Your choice is to do whatever your employer wants or take a walk, you can't sue except in cases of discrimination or other violations of federal law. Where do you live, where you can force your employer into arbitration if you don't like what you're asked to do?
Alaric_ wrote: Why would anyone arrange their affairs in a way in which they become dependent on a single "employer?"
Who says I did that? I left that job for a better one. Same lack of legal protections, though. Your concept of contract laws covering employment is strange to me, there's no binding contract in at-will employment, and that's very deliberate.
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StatementTerminator wrote: No, exploitation is "voluntary," otherwise it's slavery.
Then we're arguing semantics; it makes no sense to me to bundle "exploitation" with voluntary agreements because if you are agreeing to something voluntarily that you consider exploitative, you are agreeing to be "exploited" which means you are not being exploited.
StatementTerminator wrote: I don't think you understand how employment works in the South. You don't get to negotiate a contract for a permanent salaried position, you only negotiate pay, and your employer can reduce your pay at any time for any reason.
I do understand; I work in an At-Will employment state, but my labor is protected by contracts. It's a pain in the ass to deal with disputes, but that's a cost of doing business with untrustworthy customers...and why I make sure I have a contract.
StatementTerminator wrote: Where do you live, where you can force your employer into arbitration if you don't like what you're asked to do?
That's my point. I don't have an "employer." I think the concept of the "employer" needs to be abolished. There's really nothing special about the arrangement. As I said before, you present a service to the market (your labor) and a customer buys your service (the company). Labor is just a part of their production schedule and their capital structure. Sure, they want it to be treated differently, in their favor, but that's where getting the State out of the business of granting favors to their buddies comes into play...but that's getting into Anarcho-Capitalism and a completely different can of worms.
"I need build Skynet. Plz send code"
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I cannot blame a victim in a situation where there is none. You made a choice, and now to cope with your choices and the damage they caused you are trying to convince others that doing something like what you did is justified somehow. The parallels to hazing psychology are striking.
Please try to bear in mind I have done the same, I am not judging you.
You have rights. You can say no. Nobody forced you or took advantage of you. This is self inflicted damage my friend. You speak of responsibility while simultaneously refusing to accept it where it matters most. The most important question to ask is "What could I have done differently?". I suggest reading around emotional intelligence.
FWIW I live in a right to work state as well - in the Midwest, and I like the south... good bourbon for one. I will move, change jobs, leave the country, etc before I ever accept unionization - I would fight it first of course. Unlike southerners those of us in the Midwest have witnessed first hand the undesirable effects unions have on an industry/economy. My home city is almost dead at this point and unions played a big role in that. If you wont take my word take the word of the voters of Michigan who just turned that state into a right to work state.
A much better and free market solution to the wage/working conditions issue is to end the abuse of H1-B and similar programs.
Lawsuits are a cost of doing business. If you cannot deal with being sued you should not be in business in the US. I am not gonna defend this; just stating reality.
You offer up that they fired the sales guy anyway as some sort of defense. I could argue that the more responsible approach is to manage the situation, NOT take actions that end up with the company losing two valuable employees. Maybe if thing were managed properly you would both still be working there happily to this day, but we will never know. Having the character to tell people when they are wrong/screwed up is valuable and factors into your net worth.
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Rowdy Raider wrote: You offer up that they fired the sales guy anyway as some sort of defense. I could argue that the more responsible approach is to manage the situation, NOT take actions that end up with the company losing two valuable employees.
It wasn't a defense, nor did I have anything to do with it, are you seriously blaming me for his firing? I took actions to cause that how?
You keep saying that I handled it irresponsibly and should have done something different. Like what? Complain? Management knew the situation, they weren't happy about it either, but if they didn't meet deadline they might have had a hard time making payroll, and then layoffs, it had happened before. Would that have been responsible?
So what was I supposed to do, in your opinion? Would walking out have been a responsible thing to do, leaving them high-and-dry and leaving me in a position where I had no job and an uphill battle to get a new one? It's a bit hard to explain that in a job interview. Walking out seems like it would have been irresponsible to both my employer and myself.
I didn't take actions that caused the loss of two employees, don't hang that on me. What exactly do you think I should have done? Please tell me what you mean by "manage the situation." I wasn't in control of anything other than doing the job or walking out.
Rowdy Raider wrote: You speak of responsibility while simultaneously refusing to accept it where it matters most.
How did I refuse to take responsibility? From my point of view I did the responsible thing, I did what had to be done and then left when I had another job lined up. In what way did I refuse to take responsibility? Should I have said "oh well, my fault for taking this job, I'll just stay here," or "I shouldn't have taken this job, I'm walking out right now?"
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Ah... see I have helped you down the road to recovery, now you have moved on from denial to anger. I cannot give you the answers you need to find them on your own.
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That's a cop-out, and an arrogant one.
You need to explain exactly what you mean, or you are just blowing hot air. You keep talking about how I handled things the wrong way, and then refuse to say what I should have done differently. You keep saying that I acted irresponsibly, and then refuse to say what a responsible course of action would have been. Unless you can explain what you think I should have done differently, I'm going to have to assume that you're just concern trolling.
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Not liking what I say doesn't mean it is trolling. Not giving you answers isn't a cop out.
I was trying to bow out of this conversation, but insinuations of trolling should not be ignored. I saw Alaric_ jumping in as well and primarily I am concerned that he and I do not start to triangulate on you.
I never said nor implied nor insinuated you are irresponsible go reread.
Expecting me to provide you detailed answers as to how you should have handled a difficult situation long since passed is not realistic nor fair to me.
Here is what you need to digest. The answers to your questions do not matter. Asking them and considering he possibilities is where the growth lies. A lot of these kinds of things do not have a right answer now or then - how could I give you one?
If you want to have a philosophical conversation I can indulge. But I wont go for further insinuations.
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Rowdy Raider wrote: I never said nor implied nor insinuated you are irresponsible go reread.
You need to take a deep breath and go back and read what you said. You did imply that I acted irresponsibly, you accused me of causing a co-worker to get fired because I didn't handle things properly (without saying what I should have done), and you only offer up advice along the lines of "go read up on emotional intelligence."
Regardless of what you intended, you were being insulting and arrogant. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, but I think it's a bit ironic that you are refusing to take responsibility for what you said.
Rowdy Raider wrote: I could argue that the more responsible approach is to manage the situation, NOT take actions that end up with the company losing two valuable employees. .
Do you really not see what you are saying there?
You seem keen on pointing out the psychology of others but seem blind to your own. Physician, heal thyself.
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This seems to be more of a problem because "programming" is intangible. It is difficult to imagine a building contractor not billing for a change order on a customer's whim, particularly when this involves ripping out work that was already done which is fully functional.
Much of this appears to occur because of the failure to implement well known and time tested principles of project management such as adequately defining a project to avoid moving targets and attempting to nail the jelly to the tree. In many cases when the customer realizes they are paying for the changes they keep requiring, in money and/or delivery date slip, their changes stop.
Another significant problem, unless the project is properly modularized/packaged and rigidly controlled, is that non-productive activities/enhancements tend to creep in. Programming is a creative activity, and it is difficult to avoid adding "flourishes" which add nothing to the product functionality, and which only the programmer will notice, for example writing a subroutine that is available as a library function so the program is smaller or runs [marginally] faster. User interfaces are another creative trap prone to introduce endless tinkering. In many cases "good enough" is indeed good enough.
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I'm in agreement here. If this becomes the norm in the industry it's going to run the same destruction my other job had: In architecture the client is basically asking for a Rolls Royce, yet willing to pay only for a Mini. And then as the project continues adds to it, modifies it, asks for 100's of throwaway alternative designs, to the point where the actual amount of work going into it (at the end of several years) is equivalent to a passenger liner instead of the original under-quoted Rolls Royce.
And the trouble is that everyone's been doing it for so long now, that that is what every single client expects! If an architect refuses he will simply loose that project as well as any future projects since the client then just goes to the guy down the street who's perfectly willing to work himself to death for the bare minimum pay.
Used to be a lucrative career, now it's more like 16 hour days with pay you'd expect for a labourer. So if this is where the programming industry is heading, be sure to rather go with those far-east sweat shops like most architects are also now doing!
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I was reading the Apple Watch pun thread [^]
And I noticed how well thought out the indents are as the thread goes on. It starts with a full indent, goes to a half, then a quarter, then an eighth etc etc.
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gotta be a CP record those two set up  
»»» <small>Loading Signature</small> «««
· · · <small>Please Wait</small> · · ·
![Badger | [badger,badger,badger,badger...]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/badger.gif)
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For some reason, I'm reminded of the Kyntyre rule.
Alberto Brandolini: The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.
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I'll need to Mull that over.
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[^]
Software Zen: delete this;
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