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My niece started to learn CS some 6 weeks ago. I just realized that nothing changed since I left...They still pump an enormous amount of mathematics into students.
I'm aware that, good logical thought is a must-have for CS, and that good mathematics means the same, but even so!
Did you learned that much mathematics as part of your studies? Was it really helpful?
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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I went off to Uni (many moons ago) to study a BTech in Maths and Computer Science.
At the end of my first year I failed every maths subject (getting zero in one exam, I suspect I didn't even get my own name right) and transferred to a "pure" CS after I re-did the maths exams (at home, no time pressure, all my books and notes. And friends who had passed them handy).
I can say that with the exception of basic geometry the only thing I have needed any significant maths for since is low level graphics drivers (you need trig for arcs, curves, and circles).
So no. It wasn't really handy.
I think it's a hangover to the old, old days: when maths (and Latin) was at the root of all science and scientific thinking. You need some, yes - but nothing too advanced any more. (You need a damn sight more math for physics than for computing these days)
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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Agree about the physics!
Many, many moons ago when I started Uni I was aiming for a degree in Physics. That lasted until second year.
The day my lecturer put a double integral sign up on the blackboard (I said it was long ago) was the day I knew I would have to find something else... so computing science it was!
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And it gets plenty worse (or better, depending on your view of math) in physics after double integrals.
But then, in CS, there's the C and the S, isn't there - and who would want to miss the S if it puts you effectively in a higher echelon?
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I once had to do nested integration by parts in an Excel spreadsheet.
BNF had an old Frameworks spreadsheet for calculating radiation from waste piles and they not only wanted it brought up-to-date, they wanted to pull dynamically from a database. One radioactive element breaks down to others - the math was seriously hairy. One formula couldn't fit into an Excel cell, so I created VBA functions. I remember one calculation had to be broken into smaller parts and even then I hit the maximum line continuation limit several times. [shudder/]
I'm not sure that my uni math helped much though!
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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I left the country
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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I don't blame you!
Sounds like a prime candidate for Weird And Wonderful[^] though. Or are you worried that the next poor fool is going to hop on a plane and hunt you down? 
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
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I don't have the code anymore (like I was going to keep that!)
I think there were fewer line continuations then (around '95, gawd know which version of Excel), but breaking some of the calculations up made no sense and would have made the code even harder to understand. This was done on site and with the approval of real nuclear physicists (a weird bunch who incidentally knew Terry Pratchett personally!)
You should have seen the original Framework spreadsheets. At least my VBA had comments (some probably started "Sorry"!) and "friendly" function names like dblRadiationFromDaughterProducts.
Sometimes the problem really is that awful, and your choice is to compare various steaming heaps.
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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I'm self taught, no college education. But I must say that although I don't specifically implement mathematics in my work, I find myself using math a lot in my mind as I work. Especially with Web projects. Helps to solve a lot of problems, layout issues, etc. It isn't really complicated mathematics, but I can see how they would apply.
djj55: Nice but may have a permission problem
Pete O'Hanlon: He has my permission to run it.
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We had a lot of maths courses (calculus, stats, linear algebra...) and a lot of theoretical CS courses that required a good maths base.
I forgot most of it because I did not have use for them in the jobs I had after uni. but now, it kills me and I need to get back to it if I want to improve my skills.
I'd rather be phishing!
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Yes I did - Computer Engineering in Italy is strongly based on Mathematics.
Yes I used and use it heavily. Processing analogic and digital signals, analyzing mass spectres and densimetries to detect irregularities, optimizing such algorithms through analysis before the implementation... They are all part of my day-to-day job.
Also if I were to program videogames I'd need a thorough competence in trigonometry, while for Operational Research math is needed to understanding and avoiding precision losses and to pre-optimize procedures. Big data research uses algorithms strongly based on statistical correlation, which is a living hell of integrals of each and any order.
Let's not even talk about more scientific fields, where interaction with physics (and so differential equations of any order) is continuous.
IMHO teaching good math in the studies is the best way to go, because you don't limit students to a few career paths - the ones who end up developing Android apps or simple applications may discard any deep mathematical knowledge, while those who feel up to may end up in other fields where math is more important.
Geek code v 3.12
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- r++>+++ y+++*
Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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It's simple organizational politics and economics.
FACT: CompSci was developed by Math Department.
FACT: Because CompSci is a Math major, there are minimum requirements to be taught by the Math Department professors.
Supposition: If Math Department loses control of Comp Sci major, math requirements would lessen causing Math Department to lose professors, staff and budget.
Supposition: If Math Department loses professors, staff and budget then the Dean of the Math department would have less prestige and lower pay.
Result: Math Department won't give it up CompSci major and the requirements for taking course in the math department stays high/
That said, many universities have business school programs with emphasis on information systems. The math requirements stop with applied calculus and statistics courses. The question is: Do you want to write compilers or business apps?
cat fud heer
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Excellent response!..and one that agrees with my experience. In the late '80s I was pursuing a CS degree. I did great in the programming courses, but the calculus 1 (which I took twice) along with chemistry 1, and accounting kicked the crap out of me.  I lost my scholarship and spent the next 10 years as a production drone. When I came back to school in the late '90s my degree was switched to CIS under the SOB. No more maths or 'science' classes were required. Too bad I still had to take all those horrible literature classes!
"Go forth into the source" - Neal Morse
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I was in my late 20s when I started on my bachelors, scared as could be because my last two years of HS were abysmal. When I got to Business Calc, second quarter, I really struggled. There were three section tests then a cumulative final right after the 3rd section.
It was all cookbook stuff, as far as the way it was taught: Do this, do that, and out comes the answer.
On the first section test I got something like a 76, so I studied even harder for the second. Of course my score on that was even worse.
So I went to see a TA. I told him my woes. He asked which course I was taking.
He said "Do this, do that, and out comes the answer."
I said, "I know that. That's what I do but my tests suck. Why does doing this and that give me the answer?"
Then he went on to explain it in terms of speed and exceleration. Heck! It was back to high school physics from there, where we spent most of the year starting from mass, distance, time to things like speed (d * t) and acceleration (d * t * t) and it all made sense.
Third section test was something like a 98%, and the final was over 100% because I also aced the extra credit. Ended up with an 89.5% average for the quarter.
Ninety percent was an A, so I went to the professor to ask for the bump. No could do, he said. The numbers are the numbers. That I had mastered the material meant nothing to him.
Well, I took Bus Calc 2 from another professor and got an A. I remember he was Lebanese and spoke French, too. My first quarter I had an A in PreCalc taught by a Spanish-speaking grad student.
So, the biggest lesson I learned from Bus Calc 1 was "Don't take math classes from people who speak English as their first language."
cat fud heer
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Spot On! Do not limit everyone.
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Maybe CompSci is a Math major at your school, but that certainly isn't universal. At my school it's under the College Of Engineering And Computer Science, which is in a separate building on nearly the opposite side of the campus from the College Of Natural Sciences And Mathematics.
Stopping the math requirements for CS at calculus and statistics is insane, though. Surely they at least include discrete/finite math? The basics of graph theory and group theory are pretty broadly useful, and you really can't do modern graphics without some understanding of matrices and quaternions.
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Yep...different schools do break things out differently.
Way back when I was an undergraduate there were three computing-centric majors. Computer Engineering was much more hardware oriented than the others. It was part of the College of Engineering. Computer Science was in the Math Department of the College of Arts & Sciences. It's focus was operating system-level and communications software plus research-supporting computing. An Information Systems major, mainly focused on applications, was offered by the College of Business.
cat fud heer
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I'm currently doing a bachelor IT at the Open University. I've done a good part of the first year and yes, I needed math.
There's discrete math A and B in the first year. Also communication technology which deals with subjects (like waves and Fourier analysis) that require math. There's also a course on computer systems and I suspect it will be more math, but don't know yet as I haven't followed the course.
In my second and third year I'll start with continuous math. After that I'll do capita selecta math, algorithms and logic (three seperate courses). Other courses that I'm probably going to need math for are security and artificial intelligence. I needed at least some understanding of math terminology and syntax for the course functional programming.
So yeah, I need that math... For my university.
In the real world I've only used it to impress and belittle my boss and coworkers. Totally worth it 
But really, I hate it and whenever I get stuck it's because of math. I even thought about quitting because of math, but then I realized I'm not a quitter and I sat in a corner and cried and cried and then I passed that math exam... At least after all those math courses I can recognize the pattern of wanting to quit, cry and deal with it.
My blog[ ^]
public class SanderRossel : Lazy<Person>
{
public void DoWork()
{
throw new NotSupportedException();
}
}
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What do you consider an enormous amount of Math?
I had to take first year calculus, which you needed to know to do most of the other science/engineering physics. If you didn't have a firm grasp of math to that level, you would struggle.
We also had to take a second year of calculus. This was primarily focused on engineering related problems.
And probability.
All of the other math classes were some form of abstract or discrete mathematics.
I believe we only needed to add 2-3 more math classes and we could earn a minor in math along with our Bachelor of Science.
So it sounds like a lot of math, but most of it you need to be prepared to take some of the other classes. Then if you consider the ultimate purpose of higher education is to create prepared minds, then the amount of raw math seemed appropriate.
---
Yes it has been useful, however, my jobs have not always required as much math as I would like. But even if I have forgotten how to practice most of the formula's, I can hold intelligent with other engineers that are not CS majors on a project that contains Electrical, Mechanical, and Chemical Engineers.
My education prepared me.
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Aye, I totally quote that. I find myself working on fast production lines with mechanical and electrical issues to be accounted for. I also help on the CAD drawings and electrical planning of the new models of machine we sell. And our ONLY need is identifying threats in food and medications by means of X-Ray - there enter Physics and Chemistry, in fact my boss is a Chemical Engineer.
I worked also in robotics - physics all the way down there, from Computer Vision to movement.
Geek code v 3.12
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- r++>+++ y+++*
Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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Yep, just because you don't use it directly, doesn't mean you don't need it.
It's similar to sorting algorithms and other basic data structures. I haven't had to code one of those in years, because there are plenty of fantastic libraries that already work and allow me to focus on my job. But it's still helpful to know how to create them if I had to.
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It is a requirement for the "science" part of the degree, I believe.
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I'm self taught, so I didn't study math much in the beginning, I did a bit down the road.
Jeremy Falcon
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As an engineer, I learned far more mathematics, and I've found a use for most of it. Considering that one of the most important functions of a computer is to crunch numbers and perform calculations that would be inefficient to do manually, this emphasis on mathematics is entirely appropriate.
Will Rogers never met me.
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