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Luis M Cabrera wrote: if you use telescopes on earth to do your astrology, you cannot see or account for the small discrepancies introduced by relativity.
Sure you can. Gravitational lensing, red/blue shifting, both are examples of relativity in action. Einstein's theory that gravity bends light was proven with terrestrial telescopes.
Luis M Cabrera wrote: Besides, when astrologers begun their "art" there was no real understanding of the motions of the planets or the laws governing such motions.
True indeed! But I don't need to understand my mother-in-law to know that I want to move as far away from her as possible! 
Marc
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Marc Clifton wrote: Sure you can. Gravitational lensing, red/blue shifting, both are examples of relativity in action. Einstein's theory that gravity bends light was proven with terrestrial telescopes.
Exactly, but astrologers have failed to update their craft to include those observations, besides, they don't use the motions of the stars, only the "planets", relative to the background stars, so gravitational lensing induced changes on apparent position will not change the odds of a baby born in January to be a great ruler, or astrologer. 
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Ghosts, vampires, fairies and little people that live at the bottom of the garden as well or is it just the pseudo sciences that you cannot refute one way or the other?
I am constantly astonished by the things rational, sensible people can believe in, this includes all religions of course.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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It is great hubris to think there are not vast areas of knowledge yet to be understood or discovered or that if it can't be proven, it can't be. Scientists are often so smug.
As far as pseudo-sciences, I am reminded of economics. Here, two "experts" can argue about some economic principle and throngs will line up behind each expert fully convinced their side is correct. One side, if proven wrong, would be denied acquiescence by their ego and\or their vested professional interest in their conceptual framework.
Astrology has a batting average on par with economics.
I used to think I knew it all. The older I get, the more I realize I don't understand.
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MKJCP wrote: two "experts" can argue about some economic principle
I work in a bank and KNOW these guys make it up as they go along, comparing the track record of astrology and economic theory does a disservice to astrology practitioners.
I do like something more substantial than "faith" or "belief" before I put any credence in something.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Mycroft Holmes wrote: this includes all religions of course.
I make a distinction between religion and spirituality. 
Marc
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Marc Clifton wrote: I make a distinction between religion and spirituality
Absolutely.
[slap] do not get started on religion.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity
RAH
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Mycroft Holmes wrote: [slap] do not get started on religion.
Amen!
Marc
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As someone who once wrote a program that helps people pick numbers for the UK National Lottery, I feel that I have a vested interest in this discussion, so should not take part.
(I won't mention the small fact that if you read the code of that prog, you'd instantly see that I was taking the piss out of the nutters)
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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For a few months I've been enjoying a bathroom floor that feels like a Greek beach in summer, you practically had to run across it. The joy ended abruptly on the arrival of my electricity bill however. (£550 for the quarter)
So, I'm trying to find the sweet spot. Electric under floor heating appears to be eye-wateringly expensive. It currently tells me its 22 degrees Celsius, but actually feels pretty toasty.
I'd have thought that anything less than 37 degrees (depending on its thermal conductivity) would likely feel cold, and anything higher than that warm. The tiles are some sort of ceramic typical of bathrooms so I would think that has a high thermal conductivity.
22 degrees air temperature is pretty pleasant, but that has low thermal conductivity.
So my question, is 22 degrees actually warm, or is the thermostat knackered? How hot is the average bath?
Happy new year btw!
Regards,
Rob Philpott.
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It depends on how you dressed at home - if you are walk around like on the beach you will need a much higher temperature than with more clothes on...
We have an under-floor heating system (working on hot-water pipes) and we set it to 18 Celsius (except on really cold days when we may put it up to 21) and feel very good...
As I understand the thermostat I have measures the temperature of the floor itself and not the air, but as hot air tends to rise...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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These are low temperatures - 17c from Dave below, 18c here. Don't get how that can feel warm, but I'm going to give it a go!
Regards,
Rob Philpott.
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It really depends on what your aim is. If you want it to be really warm and toasty on the bottom of your feet then set it high; my wife likes to set ours at 32C (thermostat has a probe in the floor). If you just want to take the chill out of the floor so your bare feet do not freeze when you step on it first thing in the morning then a lower temp will suffice. Also look into programmable thermostats that will warm the floor just before you get up in the morning, no need to keep it hot 24 hours a day.
Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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http://www.floorheatingsystems.co.uk/questions-about-underfloor-heating.htm[^]
Look at the running cost estimates in that link......maybe the heat loss in your room is too high. make sure you are filling the gaps between floor and skirting etc to stop draughts.
It is not just the temperature, it is the time it is on. You need to work out when you actually need the temperature, maybe you are unnecessarily heating the room when you are not there. I would start with 17'C and edge it up 1'c every couple of days until you find that point that feels comfortable, but not too warm, you only want to take the chill out of the air.
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£3-4/square metre?! My bathroom can only be about 6 square metres in total. Mind you, the kitchen has it as well and that's much larger. Watching my electricity meter spinning round, I estimated it at 1.5KW. Other literature says 150W/m2 is typical.
I will do as you say, but 17c sounds decidedly chilly. It comes on at 5.30 in the morning, so as about an hour to get up to temperature.
Thanks for the suggestion.
Regards,
Rob Philpott.
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You can also turn it off early.
For example, I turn my central heating off 30 minutes before we leave the house in the morning as there is still sufficient heat in the system to continue keeping the rads warm until we leave.
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I don't trust their running costs: their rate of £4/m²/year seems much too low. The Energy Saving Trust calculator http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/domestic/content/home-energy-check[^] suggests nearly £2k to heat a new, well-insulated 4-bed detached house (150m²) with electricity (underfloor), ie £13/m². reducing to £1340 (8.9/m²) with mains gas.
Note that the Handy Heat page itself says the system is designed to run the floor at 25-28C.
Fed up with the slow heating rate (and high cost) of the electric underfloor heating in our bathroom, I fitted a £23 2kW fan heater which does the job (warm the air) in no time, and only runs when required. I can cope with cold feet for a few seconds.
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you should post that on first world problems
Amr Abdel Majeed
Senior Software Developer
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22 degrees sounds just right to me, if it's air temp where talking about.
Floor temp should be about four degrees higher.
Question, is the thermostat measuring the floor or air temp?
If it's measuring the air temp and you're having an extractor fan or similar contruction in the bathroom, the thermostat is effectively measuring the temp in the room outside the door, and the heating might therefore be constantly on.
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This is a vexing problem, Rob, because perceived heat will vary with DNA heritage and epigenetic expression of proteins regulated by genes as a result of life-experience of both you, and your ancestors.
And, conditions like leprosy, or peripheral neuropathy as a result of diabetes, for example, can mute nerve response.
Assuming you are not leprous and/or neuropathic, then we come to the complex subjective influence of intrapsychic factors in reaction to ... and shaping ... individual perceptions even of basic physiological parameters. Cultural context, set-setting, etc. 'Tis true: subjectivity rides the bucking bronco of physiology.
For example, we, intuitively, will say that this man: [^] appears to be having a hot bath.
But, what is his inner experience ? How would that inner experience be different if he were playing with a rubber duck, for example, rather than Choco. Is it possible that he actually feels cool ?
I think he's cool.
In other words, science may not be able to help you here, but do know: science is on your side (referring to science supporting you in your quest for algorithmic certainty, not to science actually in the tub with you).
cheers, Bill
«A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens inwards ... as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push» Wittgenstein
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Can you believe that?
Chito is still alive and Pocho died of old age! 
Story[^]
Impressed! 
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Great Find, Super Lloyd, what a wonderful story. The fact that Chito sang "The Great Pretender" at Pocho's funeral is incredibly touching !
thanks, Bill
«A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens inwards ... as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push» Wittgenstein
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To tell you the whole story I was looking for the tragic ending of Chito with some unfortunate "accident"...
Well it didn't happen!
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I think you may have gone outside the realm of what underfloor heating is meant to do.
Its objective is "to heat the room", not "to keep the floor at toasty-roasty happyfoot temperature".
Obviously, the floor will be warmer than the air a metre from floor height, which will be nice for your toesies, but setting the temperature at 22 means that you want all the air in the room to be that temperature, and it will break its balls to pump that much heat.
If you want the floor not to feel cold (which a wet floor in a bathroom always will), cover it with something that doesn't suck all the heat out of what it touches.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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22 degrees is on the low end of the comfort zone, so it's nominally cool. I would put it at 25 or 26.
37 C is 99 F!!!
If your actions inspire others to dream more, learn more, do more and become more, you are a leader.-John Q. Adams
You must accept one of two basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe, or we are not alone in the universe. And either way, the implications are staggering.-Wernher von Braun
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.-Albert Einstein
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