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TheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote: True and one in which such community is formed by free choice and free will. Not force. Gov't is force.
W∴ Balboos wrote: federally built interstate highway
Yes, and the gov't can forbid you to travel it anytime they want to.
That's one way of viewing a donut, complaining it has a hole in it.
TheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote: True and one in which such community is formed by free choice and free will. Not force. Gov't is force.
Why won't I agree with that? Well - consider the following - laws related to peaceful coexistence with your neighbors. What if you don't buy-in; are you exempt?
Or better thought out: without the nasty government getting in the way, it would be basic rule by force, those have the biggest muscles/guns/gangs/etc. telling you what to do. That's actually how the concept of a "King" probably developed. Someone with enough resource to hire thugs got their way - giving them more resource to hire more thugs and the wealthy guy now had effectively an army - and their commands were obeyed or else -> hence, the king was born.
Now wait - this could go along to prove your view, too. What's the difference? Well, that's only cropped up in the last few centuries - where the peasants gathered their money together to hire their own gangs to keep the Kings from telling them what to do. And to put out fires in case someone's house starts to burn.
So - like not wanting to be forced into a community to pay for a fire department. If your place burns it'll take the neighbor's with it. They're now forced to pay for your fire-department costs to protect themselves. Now it's them taking from you.
Basically, it's a full-circle thing. All routes lead to the same butt-hole. It's my belief that the advantage of everyone being "forced" to kick in for the fire protection (police protection, etc.) is that it distributes the burden fairly to all of those who benefit. So - government's taken from everyone - but when you neighbor's place is ablaze, you're glad that the fire department's going to come.
Every option comes with a price - that, I think, we can both agree on. How free should we be to choose our own price? That depends, in the end, on how much your decision will cost me. Slogans just don't make it in a real world with real people and real problems.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: What if you don't buy-in; are you exempt?
No, except by leaving or trying by persuasion to change it.
As for the rest of your treatise: that gov't is best which governs the least as possible. Which, of course, means that the populace is by-and-large a law-abiding and self-governing one, i.e. essentially moral.
As for how kings came about, there's probably something to what you said, but I think it mainly evolved from tribal constructs and because people wanted protection from the strongest guy around from other strong guys. Or something like that.
W∴ Balboos wrote: Slogans
It's not a slogan when it's the truth. Be wary, be very wary.
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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TheGreatAndPowerfulOz wrote: No, except by leaving or trying by persuasion to change it.
In college, I took a course called "Radical Thought". It sucked. I did learn a few things from it though. One of them was that community persuasion concept. Did you know that's how Communist China did its thing. We, of course, circle back to just who is the community - but immaculately, you're either the community is going to be exploited by the individual or there will be a dictatorship of the people. I believe we all know how well those worked out.
It's that moral part that will get us every time. I would argue that if we recast it as greed we can take it a step further. Consider that greed, in an evolutionary construct, is not a bad thing but a survival instinct. You want your genes to survive. You family; your clan, you tribe, etc. This means that you should, at any cost, get what you need to assure this survival. This is fine in a feral environment where survival is a continuous concern. Roll a head a few million years or so and we have aggregates of people. Greed, now, becomes counter productive to the community. The instinct is still there. It's why communism won't work. It's also why capitalism eventually is anti-capitalistic (no one wants competition). In the latter case, anti-trust laws, for example, help mitigate the trend.
So long as we are humans, we live with a constant contradiction between instincts for survival and the prosperity that's only attainable as a group. That remark on being careful is 100% on the mark. Listen very carefully to what's said. What's not said. And what's going to be done to you for both of these to be accomplished.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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It's a constant balancing act. I think that's the basic genius behind the foundation of the US Constitution. And I wasn't talking about "community persuasion" i.e a top-down approach, I was talking about individual persuasion, i.e. a bottom-up approach.
W∴ Balboos wrote: prosperity that's only attainable as a group
A group of like-minded individuals. Everyone has to be working toward the common goal, but of one's own free choice and free will. You first look out for your own needs and those of your family, then whatever excess you have, you give to others by your own free will and choice, because taking care of others also, over time, takes care of you and because it's the right thing to do. That satisfies both the individual survival imperative and the group survival, group prosperity imperative.
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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I'll be heading home very shortly - just as well as my inbox is overheated.
I think the main thing we differ on is (not perfectly put!) the initialization of the community projects. You have more faith in human nature than I.
Euphemistically, they won't even stop at a stop sign unless a cop is watching. Not all - but more than enough. The miserable predators that took advantage of us and countless other Sandy victims and, by contrast, those who came and gave of themselves freely, which I will also never forget.
But the former of these two will spoil it for all the rest if given free choice - because that's what they do.
By the way - a good part of the thread - real thought - what I was hoping for in the original topic, but this will do.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Of course, I was being idealistic. I think in the end, eventually, that's where things have to end up or we get a reset.
Have a good evening/day, etc...
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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Well said. I don't completely agree with what you wrote, but I like it. For instance, I wouldn't say "Most GOP are nuts", but I would probably say "Most vocal GOP and the GOP 'leadership' (  ) are nuts". I don't like playing Devil's Advocate, but I am often skeptical. I have learned the hard way not to be so trusting and gullible. Got burned too many times.
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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In chemistry, there's a reaction to add hydrogen halides across a double bond. A scientist, Markovnikov, came up with a rule to predict which of two possible results the reaction will yield. My organic chemistry textbook put it in very simple to understand terms:
"Them what has gets"
The parties cheat like made - for their own interests. People tend to forget that the parties are, in fact, private enterprises and not government "fair is fair" entities.
What makes me angry about the Bernie Buffoons: they're so inexperienced that they're deciding with their hormones instead of their brains. The next president will pick several supreme court justices - basically effecting everything for the rest of everyone's lives. Bernie, surprisingly silent, is going to be the next Ralph Nadar. The damage he caused by running is truly Soapbox material. He best get off his ass and explain to them that this election is for real and there's no replay button.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Did you ever here the expression "Extinction is forever" ? Your belief in the posts (ignoring, for example, HRC's commanding lead in popular vote - what good are numbers anyway?) is very saddening.
Reread my first sentence, again. Because if Hillary doesn't win, that's the way the civil rights of pretty much everyone but the big corporations will go.
Or do you prefer:
A Gram is Better than a Damn.
A Gram is Better than a Damn.
A Gram is Better than a Damn.
A Gram is Better than a Damn.
A Gram is Better than a Damn.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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N_tro_P wrote: And voting out of fear is throwing your vote away.
NO
Throwing away your vote is throwing away your vote!
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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The only way to throw away one's vote is by not voting. Fear, not always being irrational, is not necessarily a bad criteria on which to base one's vote.
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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I don't agree with your prediction.
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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Snopes is probably funded by federal government/politicians. That's why democrat apologists like to refer to the site. They've already got a demonstrated propensity for believing everything they read/hear from lamestream media.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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As to the GOP fanatics who listen to and swallow whatever they here from their latest idol. And if the story changes? 1984's "Double Think" is her and now. (1984 is a book - we liberals, having deciding learning to read is useful, can read books).
John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: Snopes is probably funded by federal government/politicians.
Perfect example: you haven't the least basis for this except that you'd like it to be so in order to justify your ignoring their showing you that what you believe conspiracy theories and lies. You've dismissed them so that make the world OK again
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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W∴ Balboos wrote: we liberals, having deciding learning to read is useful, can read books).
Implication being that if you are not liberal you can't read?
That should have gone to the Soapbox...
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Tim Carmichael wrote: Implication being that if you are not liberal you can't won't read?
FIFY.
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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Proving once again the liberals are assholes.
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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So, do you consider yourself of the left cheek; of the right cheek, or taken that spot in the middle?
| Ravings en masse^ |
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| "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein | | "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 |
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LOL. Nice. And, neither. Thanks for proving the point.
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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Indeed. It's just that I've observed much more often from liberals displaying a I'm-smarter-than-all-yall-and-holier-than-all-yall sort of attitude.
#SupportHeForShe
Government can give you nothing but what it takes from somebody else. A government big enough to give you everything you want is big enough to take everything you've got, including your freedom.-Ezra Taft Benson
You must accept 1 of 2 basic premises: Either we are alone in the universe or we are not alone. Either way, the implications are staggering!-Wernher von Braun
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