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No man....In the world of computers...we think in binary ..talk with complilers..touch with keyboards...
so i think that s not a matter..
The TRUE CP -ian
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However, it's a "legitimate" excuse if you can't make it on talent.
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I find it difficult for employers to belief/understand, but it's true. I contracted throughout university and so I had 5 years experience when I graduated. Now, sure it looks like I've only been out of school 4 years, but I've been programming professionally for 9.
You wouldn't believe how difficult it is to explain that.
J
"I am wise enough to therefore not spout my ill informed opinion as if it were remotely related to fact." - Christian Graus
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Jamie Hale wrote:
Now, sure it looks like I've only been out of school 4 years, but I've been programming professionally for 9.
Experience is not just about years spent coding. It is also about managing deadlines, handling stress, handling clients, handling management and teams.
Often a kid coming out of varsity who has a good few years of extra-varsity contract work does not quite understand the pressures of "real world" jobs and come unglued. Technically they are superb and are great coders, but in the real world environment they can struggle until they catch up the years of experience in that environment.
regards,
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge
Tim Smith wrote:
Over here in the third world of humor (a.k.a. BBC America),
peterchen wrote:
We should petition microsoft to a "target=_Paul" attribute.
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Paul Watson wrote:
Experience is not just about years spent coding. It is also about managing deadlines, handling stress, handling clients, handling management and teams.
Granted. So I guess older folks do have the advantage since it's assumed that they have more experience at these softer skills.
Paul Watson wrote:
Often a kid coming out of varsity who has a good few years of extra-varsity contract work does not quite understand the pressures of "real world" jobs and come unglued. Technically they are superb and are great coders, but in the real world environment they can struggle until they catch up the years of experience in that environment.
And I get to argue that being able to cope with the workload of an honours BSc and manage a contract or two at the same time plus find enough time to eat and sleep (even if both occur whilst walking home from the lab at 4am) and hack away at my own projects... that should be proof enough that I can handle the pressures of the "real world".
I've worked with kidlets straight out of school and I totally understand where you're coming from. Of course I've also worked with "re-trained" programmers who also feel that their age equates to more experience. Given the choice, I wouldn't have hired either one of them.
I was really only tooting my own horn. 
J
"I am wise enough to therefore not spout my ill informed opinion as if it were remotely related to fact." - Christian Graus
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It's not that they (the employers) don't want to believe you, it is that they have a choice now to pick among people with "real" (out-of-school) experiences.
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Anonymously wrote:
It's not that they (the employers) don't want to believe you, it is that they have a choice now to pick among people with "real" (out-of-school) experiences.
While I can understand that 5 years full-time work should provide more experience than 5 years of part-time contract work, I was merely explaining the difficulties I have trying to justify that one can actually do out-of-school work at the same time one is attending university.
Just whining really.
J
"I am wise enough to therefore not spout my ill informed opinion as if it were remotely related to fact." - Christian Graus
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I believe you. I went through the same thing. I graduated in '84, and had worked as a programmer since '80. All through the late 80's I came up against people with the same attitude: "You've only been out of school 2/3/5 years, what do you know?" I usually had to prove what I knew. At my second job out of school, they gave me a 15% increase after being there only 3 months. There was a flat policy of disregarding experience accumulated during college through part-time and/or co-op work.
I work with folks ranging in age from 25 through 60. The maturity of the programmer (and the craftsmanship in their code) doesn't always correlate to their calendar age.
"Think of it as evolution in action." - 'Oath of Fealty' by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
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Gary Wheeler wrote:
I work with folks ranging in age from 25 through 60. The maturity of the programmer (and the craftsmanship in their code) doesn't always correlate to their calendar age.
Well put.
J
"I am wise enough to therefore not spout my ill informed opinion as if it were remotely related to fact." - Christian Graus
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I went through the same thing, except that I worked full-time as a software developer and then I went to school full-time as well. The first thing that I do is avoid the date that I received my degree if I can, then the problem never comes up.
However if they ask when I got my degree, then it looks like I have only been developing for three years instead of seven, do I have to explain. But I put the spin on my answer that I noticed while all of the other students were only able to apply the new concepts that they learned to the contrived programming projects design by the professors, I was able to apply these concepts to real-world examples and understood the material better than the other students.
The fact is though, you can't judge a book by its cover, and the only real way that you can learn what a developer is made of is to test them, and that is not usually done well by very many employers.
Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day
Light a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life!
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There's programming experience and then there's experience dealing with people (or maybe: the wisdom gained through experience dealing with people that tells you when to keep your mouth shut )
A similar situation can occur when a developer from one culture moves to another. They may be the hottest developer ever, but they may lack the experience in dealing with clients, customers and their fellow workmates.
Then again I've known guys who are 60 and still have no idea...
cheers,
Chris Maunder
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The converse is true as well. After I got my degree, I was pretty sensitive about my age. As a result, I didn't ask questions when I should have, especially questions that might betray my ignorance. Nowadays, I have no problem asking questions like that (no pride left, I guess ).
"Think of it as evolution in action." - 'Oath of Fealty' by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle
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Someone under 30 can afford to be a dedicated geek.
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kokie wrote:
Someone under 30 can afford to be a dedicated geek.
Probably best not to generalise based on age, but rather where you are in life. I personally cannot be a dedicated geek as I am living with my love and have to support her and think of our future, I am only 22.
Sometimes I want to just hole up at work and do some cool new technology, but I have other comitments and "promises" to fulfill.
regards,
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge
Tim Smith wrote:
Over here in the third world of humor (a.k.a. BBC America),
peterchen wrote:
We should petition microsoft to a "target=_Paul" attribute.
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So can someone over 40.
/ravi
"There is always one more bug..."
http://www.ravib.com
ravib@ravib.com
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It seems to me that age is a factor but not so much in getting a job, but getting a great job.
To me it appears that companies are being more and more careful about who they hire at the higher pay ranges. Although a 20-30 year old can get a job with as much ease/difficulty as a 35-40 year old, the 35-40 year old has a much better chance of getting the higher paying jobs even when the 20-30 year old has better skills.
Part of me thinks this is just normal but when I stop to think about it I partly believe it is caused by the fact that technology is beginning to mature. Companies have been using software systems for many years now. Employers believe that older programmers will have a broader skill set and be able to work with more of the older technologies that are already in-place.
Is it possible that the software industry has reached a maturity level where knowledge of a broader spectrum of technologies (even if skill is lacking) is more valuable than being good at just a few?
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"Broader" for me means "Jack of all and master of none!". Still many employers that are into innovative activities (like research) will definitly want focussed people with extpertise.
Broader skill-set people are more suitable for maintainence stuff.
Regards,
Onkar Singh
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Onkar Singh wrote:
Broader skill-set people are more suitable for maintainence stuff.
Good point, but for many companies this is increasingly the only form of development that is ongoing.
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Matt Gullett wrote:
Good point, but for many companies this is increasingly the only form of development that is ongoing.
That's 100% correct. But an employer can judge a candidate based on his/her merits without taking into account the age factor. Another criteria will be degree of focus. For e.g for a Game development company, a C programmer with 10 years experience in Embedded systems will be secondary to another C programmer having 3 years in Game development.
My point is that "Be Focussed and You incease your chances" and it proves the fact "Survival of the fittest".
Onkar Singh
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Onkar Singh wrote:
Broader skill-set people are more suitable for maintainence stuff.
Not true. I am a jack of all and master of none and if you so much as mention maintenance I start looking for an exit.
However my broader skill-set makes for a very good consultant and systems analyst. I agree that for actual coding I would rather have a focused hard core oke who thinks in binary, but for consulting work and analysis and design you need someone who has a bigger picture understanding and knows enough about a wide range of tech to recommend or not.
p.s. focused hard core programmers often hit a glass ceiling while less focused programmers carry on getting promoted. After all the higher positions in a company are not about focus, they are about the bigger picture.
regards,
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge
Tim Smith wrote:
Over here in the third world of humor (a.k.a. BBC America),
peterchen wrote:
We should petition microsoft to a "target=_Paul" attribute.
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I agree, Paul. I am a Jack of all trades, but I do consider myself a moderate-master of C++/MFC.
I think many people think of programmers as just coders. (Hmm... a good question for the lounge.) That is far from the truth. There is a place for coders, but coders do have a glass-ceiling of sorts.
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Paul Watson wrote:
However my broader skill-set makes for a very good consultant and systems analyst
Now once you analyse a system and propose a solution who is going to implement that? The implementation becomes shaky if the Programmer knows only tid-bits.
And I believe you need more people for implementation than analysis. If all of them have "Broad" skillset the project is definitly sitting on a time Bomb.
Good day.
Onkar Singh
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Onkar Singh wrote:
Now once you analyse a system and propose a solution who is going to implement that? The implementation becomes shaky if the Programmer knows only tid-bits.
And I believe you need more people for implementation than analysis. If all of them have "Broad" skillset the project is definitly sitting on a time Bomb.
Onkar not for a second did I say we do not need hard core focused coders.
I was simply challenging your statement that "jack of all trades" programmers are only good for maintenance.
Believe me I know all about implementation of my specifications, and each new specification I write is better than the last thanks to feedback on the implementation of the previous one.
I would not want a jack of all trades doing the focused algorithm coding or database design for the implementation of my specs. I would want a SQL boffin or a hard core maths guy.
Giving focused jobs to unfocused people leads to problems. Hence why I am in a non-focused position, with the big picture in mind.
regards,
Paul Watson
Bluegrass
Cape Town, South Africa
The greatest thing you'll ever learn is just to love, and to be loved in return - Moulin Rouge
Tim Smith wrote:
Over here in the third world of humor (a.k.a. BBC America),
peterchen wrote:
We should petition microsoft to a "target=_Paul" attribute.
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Definitely we need people of all species.
I know that people with broader skill set get more exposure, more reputation and above all more money.
Paul, You must be a rich guy. 
Give me some tips too. 
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I am 26 today and I do not think that my age has hurt me at all, but defintely know that experience counts.
I have seven years of development experience, and I live in Salt Lake City. I have been looking for a job for about 8 months. In this depressed economy I have made it to the final cut a couple of ooportunities, but developers with 15+ years of experience have beat me out. So it is really the experience that counts.
I do guess that age comes with experience though.
Build a man a fire, and he will be warm for a day
Light a man on fire, and he will be warm for the rest of his life!
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