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You should all try Mac OS X, XCode is just great to develop C/C++/Obj-C/Java, it isn't overwhelming like Visual Studios (I have developed on VS2003-VS2005). The structure is logical. Take that MS!
Don't you also love the code?
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Gave you a 1 for a being a blind fan-boy, Filip. Windows still dominates and Mac OS X doesn't help desktop developers develop Windows apps.
(BTW, I use Mac OS X. But I am a web-developer.)
regards,
Paul Watson
Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote: At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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Oooh, a 1 
You use a Mac... Be proud about your OS. Don't give it a 1
I have developed a few apps on Windows and a few on Mac, and I still find the Mac much better for developing apps... And the Mac does help desktop developers develop Windows Apps: "Mono-project".
Btw, If you develop your software correctly (I think I do so) you can port it with ease. I do it all the time, by just using a Microkernel pattern. And for stuff like the views/Forms/Controls... just use Java with the help of JNI (or my own JNIFacade framework) and it is viewable on all systems (added in modify: ) even Linux or Beos AND you have full protection over your code because your domain layer and any sublayer is written in C++, so no decompilingtools (such as Mocha) can hit you and expose your code.
Don't you also love the code?
modified on Monday, May 5, 2008 6:18 AM
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Max OSX fan (proud?) .. blabla ... Java -> another 1 from me! 
But only because I'm MS fool... So also a big 1 for me, 
and all others thinking that there is the "best" system for everything.
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On all sites the same - Apple vs MS ... 
Why should I argue for one of them? You are very right about MS but Apple is nothing better!
Summary:
You: Give me one reason why MS is so much better then Apple...
Me: No reason because they are both kind of same crap. As a company! I like products from both.
I used countless progamming languages and systems in my life, but they don't solve problems.
We - the developers do! So if you have to develop an Windows-App which language/system/framework... to use?
I have worked on a big CMS once, we used a Database/Microkernel approach - the code itself was an database object(!). The core was written in C/C++/Assembler, we created some programming/scripting/query languages for the system. We allowed the "project-programmers" (they adopted the system for customers) to code in VB/JS/C/C++/Java/.NET and our own languages.
We had 4 Clients - (native) Windows, Linux, Web (containing Java-Applets) and .net Client (we used Mono for Linux).
Nice example for a lot of different problems. We used the systems/languages (i didn't mention all the database-headache systems) that were right for the specific problem to solve.
(Microkernel-performance? ->Assembler, ImageControl for Web-Client? ->Java, QueryLanguage for idiots? -> make your own, Customer hates MS? -> Linux-Client, Designer has no Icon? -> Start up the Mac,...)
So for me, this is programming/developing - solving Problems.
I was saying all this to show you that I am a MS fool because i have to develop windows apps now (of course MS tools and systems are best for that).
I was a Linux fool when i develped apps for this system. I was a Java fool ...
why I never was an Apple fool? No customer or boss ever asked me for it...
You (while following your herd): Every person that gives me a 1 is a person that is a sheep that follows its herd and gets bitten every now and then by the sheepdog to get back in line.
Me (while following my herd): (Remember I gave myself a 1) Why to you think that apple as a company is more proper than any other global player?
Because the products look so hip? Wouldn't they abuse there Power (Right, MS does) if they would rule the dektop market? There is no objective reason for me or you to be in favor of MS or Apple
we are just following the herd, so 1 is good for both of us! All statements saying Company XY is so cool because there product XY is so nice should be honored with a 1)
You don't have much choise as a software-developer, because someone has to build and buy(!) the hardware and the low-level layers for you.
Take what fit's your problem or likings, but don't think any of the involved companies has a higher moral than the other, they all just want to make
as much money as possible.
And don't trust shiny adds selling you some image. (Right, MS is even to dumb for this)
Do we at least agree in this: Most Programmers are smart, freaky (sometimes subversive), and creative people, working with systems from ruthless, greedy and
shifty companies, solving problems for clueless customers?
(Sometimes we - the coders - are the clueless customers of the smart developers sitting in each of the "evil" companies.)
Yes, I also love the code!  
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I gave you a 5 for your comment...
I agree for the largest part of your comment, but still there are a few things I need to get off my chest:
johannesnestler wrote: Why to you think that apple as a company is more proper than any other global player?
I do not think they are the "better global player". For me every company is the same, they have a target to hit and they will kill/destroy every person/company that stands in there way. Every business is crewl and hard. I learned to live with it.
But I still have the most respect for Apple, they don't have a primary focus on software (look at the MacBook (Pro), IPhone, EMac, ...) and they beat MS on there own turf, almost a new release every year, a superior look and feel, a consistent look and feel, software that doesn't crash every five steps, etc.
johannesnestler wrote: Because the products look so hip?
Yes, the products of Apple do look better, because the users of Macs do not accept crappy interfaces that most MS developers create. If a Mac-user sees an ugly interface that software won't thrive, it will become extinct or at least never used and taking up internet/hard drive space.
johannesnestler wrote: Most Programmers are smart, freaky (sometimes subversive), and creative people, working with systems from ruthless, greedy and
shifty companies, solving problems for clueless customers?
Haleluia to that, but the customer is not the dumbo here, it is the MS programmer that isn't able to create a decent interface.
johannesnestler wrote: Yes, I also love the code!
It is the best expression I could think of for a forum signature, I should change it into: "I only love the decent designed code." 
Don't you also love the code?
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...the products of Apple do look better, because the users of Macs do not accept crappy interfaces that most MS developers create...
I think your are right here. Most Mac users I know are not programmers, they are often People doing art (Desing, Musik, Graphic) and have a good feeling for a nice look. And no dubt apple products look cool.
But most of the them were not "invented" by Apple. iPhone looks cool, but the GUI is the nice thing, it was made by a famous design company. Apple computers have better hardware? No - they are only a vendor like others (Dell, HP...).
almost a new release every year....
http://www.macworld.com/article/14568/2000/09/buzzwindingroad.html[^]
But let's stop this boring dispute. You love your apple products? - thats fine! From your sayings I assume you are one of the "good", you would probably also do "decent designed code" on MS platforms ![Rose | [Rose]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/rose.gif)
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Paul Watson wrote: Gave you a 1 for a being a blind fan-boy
Which would also describe 99% of the people on CP.
Paul Watson wrote: Windows still dominates and Mac OS X doesn't help desktop developers develop Windows apps.
Yes it does, just like I can build Mac Apps on my Windows box. Oh sure, platform specific technologies can't be used, but the cross-platform frameworks can. Also, the question didn't say Windows apps, it just said apps.
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I haven't used a cross platform desktop development system that works as it should. What do you use?
regards,
Paul Watson
Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote: At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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Paul Watson wrote: I haven't used a cross platform desktop development system that works as it should. What do you use?
Well, I'm not sure what "as it should" entails, but I've used wxWidgets[^] before, and I've been happy with it. I mean, there are a few OS specifics in it, but by and large you can do a lot while being in either environment.
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Cool, sounds good. Any well known apps. using it?
regards,
Paul Watson
Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote: At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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Paul Watson wrote: Any well known apps. using it?
Good question. The only one I'm aware of is Audacity. There may be more; I just never researched it TBH. I like wxWidgets better than Qt because if you do closed sourced, it's still free. Can't beat that. And sizers are really nice for dialog layout.
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Cool, Audacity is pretty good. Hopefully more folk use wxWidgets if that is what it can produce. I'm really sick of cross-platform apps that use standard Java UI.
regards,
Paul Watson
Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote: At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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Paul Watson wrote: I'm really sick of cross-platform apps that use standard Java UI.
Amen to that. The sad thing is, Java is a nice language in itself. But, its implementation, is just... well you get the idea.
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Lol, you haven't used a cross platform before?
I am sure you have!
The following are "Cross platform":
dotNet (MS says it is, mostly, I say it is a marketing scam)
Java (Sun has proven itself to be cross platform, Write once, run(debug) everywhere)
Trixul (Still in development, has potential, see SourceForge)
...
But if you really want to be Cross Platform, just use Qt.
Don't you also love the code?
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Filip van der Meeren wrote: dotNet (MS says it is, mostly, I say it is a marketing scam)
Yeah, exactly.
Filip van der Meeren wrote: Java (Sun has proven itself to be cross platform, Write once, run(debug) everywhere)
I've never used a Java app that feels like a native app and that is still cross-platform. They are slow and clunky. I would never subject my users to a Java desktop app.
Filip van der Meeren wrote: Trixul (Still in development, has potential, see SourceForge)
Never heard of it.
regards,
Paul Watson
Ireland & South Africa
Fernando A. Gomez F. wrote: At least he achieved immortality for a few years.
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Jeremy Falcon wrote: Paul Watson wrote:
Gave you a 1 for a being a blind fan-boy
Which would also describe 99% of the people on CP.
I completely agree... It is a bit like I said, you are all sheep following the horde. And MS is the sheepdog and is growling to stay in line. (Apple is worse have you noticed how much Steve Jobs likes to be in full control? The IPhone SDK is the perfect example...)
Don't you also love the code?
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Filip van der Meeren wrote: have you noticed how much Steve Jobs likes to be in full control?
It's because he's losing his hair.
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I think it's not that difficult to save the last OS of members of CP with which they logged in, then use a query to find out how many users are using what.
It's even possible to have a live OS & Browser graph.
Just kidding 
// "In the end it's a little boy expressing himself." Yanni
while (I_am_alive)
{
cout<<"I love to do more than just programming.";
}
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Sure, it wouldn't be that difficult to compile o/s statistics this way. But what would it really tell you? I think it might only be accurate for telling you what o/s platform CP users were utilizing to browse to CP.
At my previous job I did most of my development on a Linux machine but only browsed the internet on a Windows machine. Perhaps this situation is too minor to worry about...
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geoffs wrote: But what would it really tell you?
What does this survey tell us? How many people use XP and select Vista or Linux? We don't know. Maybe no one, maybe someone. How many people use an OS, to come to CP today and use another tomorrow? I don't know. How accurate these statistics are? How accurate statistics generally are?
Well it was just a rant. Sharing an idea that came into my mind, without even thinking about it. The reason: I like statistics anyway.
// "In the end it's a little boy expressing himself." Yanni
while (I_am_alive)
{
cout<<"I love to do more than just programming.";
}
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