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BiggerDon wrote: writing is a means to make certain I know what I think I learned
Far too few people know this truth.
Have you ever read a Head First book (example Head First Design Patterns -- amazon link[^])?
I don't care for those books at all, because they contain huge distractions -- annoying comic-strip bits and pictures etc.
However, the Design Patterns book is quite good.
Head First Intro
However, the introduction to those books has a great explanation of recent discoveries about how the mind remembers and learns things. Basically the mind only remembers things it deems important. Since survival is one of the most important things, you tend to remember things that will harm or kill you, like the fact that a lion will eat you.
Other things, like facts on a page you rarely remember.
The point is that you must make your mind believe something is important to really learn it.
Dopamine's Part In Learning
There's a whole deal about dopamine release in the brain that is related to learning also.
You also tend to remember things that you like. When you like something dopamine flows through the brain and makes you feel good. When you feel good you tend to remember. This even tends to be a huge circular system.
How Do I Make Things Seem Important?
I take a program I really like or am very interested in and usually that program will be one created by a large company --- for example Microsoft -- then I think, "Hey, how could I write this program myself and give it away to everyone for free? And, how do I make it better than the one people are paying for?"
Make It For Myself
The third way I make something important and exciting is by making it for myself. I've always done this and recently we've heard a lot about Steve Jobs doing this. It is a huge motivator and you end up learning faster this way.
Right Tool For The Job
Next I determine if it is a desktop app or a web app. After that I choose a framework which has a large number of adherents so I can learn something that is marketable.
Along the way I may run into things that need a solution like how to store data for a web app.
RSS Reader
Recently, I wanted my own RSS reader which would allow me to store my RSS feeds and pull them up later.
I ended up using (and learning) AngularJS (Google) and Firebase API (data storing on web). You can see that project here at codeproject: FreedReadR: RSS Reader Created With AngularJS (part 2 of 2)[^]
Conclusion
1. Make something.
2. learn the technology you need to make that thing.
3. be happy.
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newton.saber wrote: There's a whole deal about dopamine release in the brain that is related to learning also.
No wonder my head is spinning when I leave work these days.
No object is so beautiful that, under certain conditions, it will not look ugly. - Oscar Wilde
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First, kudos for continuing to learn! That's more than most people do to begin with.
Second, don't minimize anything you learn, regardless of language, the concepts are valuable.
While it may be true that most developers don't use VBA, you are programming. Also, I have met many people that did not study CS in college and are great developers. One guy had a law degree.
There are so many languages, infinite ways to solve problems, the choices are dizzying. I think the first thing I think you should do before you think about technologies, is decide what you want to do with your skills.
If you want to continue to do tasks that are geared towards automating processes, python would be a good way to go. It is a general purpose scripting language that is widely available on all types of systems.
If you are interested in web technologies, JavaScript would be a better choice.
If you want to learn more general purpose programming, you can download Visual Studio Express for free from Microsoft and start learning VB.Net or C#. C# being the more valuable of the skills.
Once you decide what you want to do, and choose a language based on that domain, get a book to help guide you. You don't even need to spend money, you can get many great books at the library. There's lots of stuff on the web, unfortunately you need to know what you are looking for to find it most of the time.
Like others have said, there are so many frameworks, and complicated technologies. Try to focus on just learning like you have been. Solve small problems. Even make small personal utilities for yourself, something that will keep your interest.
I have stayed with C++ my entire career, with the need to familiarize with JAVA, C#, Python, JavaScript or other technologies for a short period of time. I have remained primarily a general purpose developer with solid software architecture skills. Taking the stance that if a path leads me in a direction that I need to learn a new technology, that is when I pick it up.
Frameworks and libraries come and go as time passes. The languages for the most part is what stays the same.
Programming itself, is similar no matter what language you choose. You break bigger problems into smaller problems until they can be solved with the tool you are using. Focus on improving your problem solving skills. Once you are proficient with one language, it is much easier to pick up others.
The fool's errand would be to stop learning.
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Paul M Watt wrote: Also, I have met many people that did not study CS in college and are great developers. One guy had a law degree
 I studied CS back when, but now I want a law degree.
No object is so beautiful that, under certain conditions, it will not look ugly. - Oscar Wilde
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Paul, thanks for the reply. There's a lot in there and all of it appreciated. To be honest, I'm a bit overwhelmed (in a great way) with the number of responses, as well as their depths of knowledge and humanity.
At this point of the day I'm thinking there is no single language for me to hit in the short term, so I'm thinking of a short-list of 3 to 5, and probably 3 is the max. A lot of that will be driven by whether I can find some project that uses one or more of those languages, then they will (of course) come to the front burner. Chickens, eggs; languages, projects.
cat fud heer
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If you can stick with one long enough to become proficient, I think that will help you the most.
Every language has a basic set of constructs, and you can combine those to create programs with linearly defined logic. That is a single large function that handles everything in sequence of commands and loops. But every language has its nuance for its own way to do things better.
you won't pick up those nuances and the best practices of the language if you are splitting your time learning many at once. If I were learning new skills today, I would try to only focus on one, unless I was test driving them to evaluate which one I want to learn deeper.
I realize everyone learns differently, so I acknowledge that your planned direction may work best for you. Best if luck.
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Well, I am a pupil with the age of 16 and never learned any serious programming in school. I thaught myself (via internet and some books) six languages so far (VB.NET, C#, C, C++, some Python and Java). Unfortunatly, my grades in subjects such as german and english decreased because of that hobby. Nowadays, however, I do all my school work and only spend a little of my free-time with programming. I have no idea what I should study after school to be honest...
If I were you, I would actually focus on .NET languages because the .NET framework will more or less become cross-platform over the next years. But that's all I can tell you because I am, as far as I know, one of the youngest here on CodeProject 
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Niquo, thanks for the reply. I'm probably at the other end of the age spectrum here, probably even older than your parents.
It's good to see the insights of someone who is looking at the future of all this. They are much appreciated.
Take care. Study Hard! (Did that sound parental enough? )
cat fud heer
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BiggerDon wrote:
From there I started to learn VBA (I know, it's not as good as any other language a real programmer would use!)
A programming language is nothing more than a tool used to solve a problem. If your problem is solved, you have nothing to "apologize" for.
BiggerDon wrote:
Of course, I am interested in your opinions as to which language(s) to go after to build more knowledge and understanding, whether you think this is a fool's errand, etc etc.
I am most interested in how you've gone about being self-educated in different languages and technologies.
I personally think that learning a computer language without first learning programming principles, methodologies, and problem solving, is taking a step in the wrong direction (I base this opinion on many years of watching the types of questions asked here at CP). Now if you already have these skills, then learning a computer language is trivial. While their syntax is different, they all have a common goal, and switching between a handful of them should not be a big deal.
I've seen way too many instances where a person will be presented with a problem, and that person wants to immediately run to the keyboard and start banging out code (using their favorite language). The issue arises when they do not have access to that language and thus cannot think their way through the problem.
"One man's wage rise is another man's price increase." - Harold Wilson
"Fireproof doesn't mean the fire will never come. It means when the fire comes that you will be able to withstand it." - Michael Simmons
"You can easily judge the character of a man by how he treats those who can do nothing for him." - James D. Miles
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Thanks, David. I couldn't agree more with your post. As to having the basics, I think I'm there since I cringe at the words "Go To" and still scribble out structure diagrams when I am building something.
Methodologies? Does being on the methodology teams for a major corp and Big 7-6-5-4-3 firm count.
One of the reasons I'm re-learning to program is my work took me up the process (lots of time in business systems/process analysis) and to areas like data center consolidation and production change management that I had never considered when I was in application development, way back when.
cat fud heer
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Individuals learn best in their own way - there's no 'right way' of learning. some folk need a class with real-time Q&A, some prefer self-paced 'how to' books, some online video courses, etc.
Personally I find that having something to actually achieve is my starting point. Rather than a course that shows me how to produce this simple outcome, or even a complex outcome that makes little or no sense to me, I start with a project.
Then find out how to do it using google-fu
There might be some courses out there that help with bits, some blogs that help with others and sometimes I might even resort {shudder} to Q&A @ CP
And blogging about it helps- as you have said - as a teacher, getting one student to explain something to another is a great way of making sure they understand - and identifying the bits they don't.
so, I would take something you have done in VBA & start off with a 'how could I do this in google Docs' - and see where it leads you
PooperPig - Coming Soon
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I prefer self directed learning personally. If you have the free time for it s course will be great but generally you only learn enough to be dangerous.
Here is what I tend to do
1. Read enough to install the language and any IDE there is. THis can take a while or may be impossible ( I failed to get julia installed on REDHAT at work, but it went like a dream on my MacbookPro and works well in Windows on my work box.
2. Then write a hello world program. I start with hello world then start working out how to import modules from other files so I know I can build libraries if I wish
3. Now pick a project: I often repeat something I did in a language I know, for example a prime number sieve is relatively simple and you can benchmark it against other languages. Alternatively something I read might gove me an idea but most of those ideas require a lot of time and effort and get frustrating when leanring a new language
4. If no project comes to mind try somewhere like Project Euler or just google on "Undergraduate computer science projects"
5. As to the two languages you mention: Download AptanaStudio 3 for JAvascripe. I think it also includes PYDEV, but I always install Pydev for Eclipse. The IDE is a little temperamental and sometimes it is easier to run javascript externally. Use Firefox and install developer tools
6. If you are doing this privately be ready for lots of WTF moment and a lot of googling and going the wrong direction.
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Thanks, aayawa!
I've been through plenty of hair-pulling and googling for answers. I remember one function that would crash Excel at its exit. It took me two full days to find out what I did wrong on that one!
As to re-building something in the new language, that was in my thoughts, too. Those functions I developed in VBA should mostly be useful in Google Drive and OpenOffice, or so I would think. It becomes a matter of translating the basic syntax/flow then figuring out how the different object models are accessed and exploited, or so I hope.
My next step (assuming the Google Drive/OpenOffice) is that I had started a call/visitor log project for someone using VBA/Excel. I might pull that from the archives, take it to a point, then re-do it in the other environments/languages.
And thanks for the leads on the IDEs. Much appreciated.
cat fud heer
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BiggerDon wrote: I am most interested in how you've gone about being self-educated in different languages and technologies.
Books, books and then, more books. At the age of 15 I had a thousand page VB 5 teach yourself book sitting on my lap, while I was in front of my computer trying out what the book was teaching. Of course, nowadays a kindle won't feel so heavy and cumbersome.
This may take a little while of your time, but it is a lot of fun and you can learn things the right way. And the best part is, it is cheap. Plus you can learn on your own pace.
It worked very well for me to the point that I started my career before getting to college.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
----
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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Yep. I'm a book guy. I have books on Excel VBA for 2007, 2010 and 2013. My complaint is if I buy a second (or third) book on the same language the first several hundred pages are redundant, just covering the same syntax as before. I bought different authors each time, hoping for a new twist.
Fabio Franco wrote: At the age of 15 I had a thousand page VB 5 teach yourself book sitting on my lap
At age 17, two guys in my HS physics class brought in calculators that could do addition, subtraction, multiplication and division. They were $100, at that time real money.
At 28, a year after the Commodore 64 came on the market, I took my first programming class. We used punch cards.
Not denigrating your comment, just providing context.
cat fud heer
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BiggerDon wrote: My complaint is if I buy a second (or third) book on the same language the first several hundred pages are redundant
You will need one book for an introduction to C# and the .net framework overall, the rest are about the specific areas of .net framework and its APIs and Tools, which are very specific (Asp.Net, WPF, etc).
Usually the books I buy starts with something like this in the first pages:
"Who is this book for?"
"This book assumes you have a working knowledge of the C# language..."
Most books at amazon, allows you to read the first pages, plus first chapter so you avoid books that go again in the same topic.
To alcohol! The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems - Homer Simpson
----
Our heads are round so our thoughts can change direction - Francis Picabia
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That's different than the market in VBA books, I'm glad to hear. Thanks for the info.
cat fud heer
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A great place to start learning almost any language is codecademy
It's free and covers a lot of material in a step by step manner. With everything you learn it tests your knowledge before moving on to the next subject. It won't teach you everything but it does give you that guided start which is the hardest part. Codecademy will also show you where to find good reference material to continue expanding your knowledge of a particular subject.
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Twallick, thanks for the reply.
I've already completed one of codecademy's tutorials. It seems thorough enough, for the introduction I needed to Javascript. Your recommendation is much appreciated. I would hate to spend more time on tutorials when theirs a better alternative.
cat fud heer
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If you never programmed in any language before then you need to start from the beginning. You have to learn variables, data types loops and decision branching. Every language does all these thing with wildly different syntax. Codecademy is not just random tutorials. It steps you through the basics of what you need to know in order to do even the simple stuff.
Learning java script is just a small piece of the pie. what you realy need to start with is HTML and CSS(cascading style sheets) to learn how to create the interfaces to your JS code. JS does you no good if you can't get input and display output. Once you have HTML AKA basic web page design. JS and what you can do with it will make more sense.
If what you are wanting is an all purpose language that you can make your own independent interfaces, like you get with executable programs then you might want to consider learning Microsoft C#, basic Free visual studio express or Java proper. both are free and you will most likely find you will never have to buy the premium versions.
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Thanks, Twallick.
You are absolutely correct that the first thing is to understand the constructs of programming. Been there, done that, long time ago. However, I don't think the way things are done are wildly different, and maybe at times close enough to be mildly confusing. I work with a director who says I'm always showing him "old school" drawings like Data Flows and Structure Diagrams whenever I explain things to him. He appreciates it because we went to the same University.
Also, if you can't present what your program does to a person, for the most part, there really is no purpose. Absolute agreement there! IOW, I don't think there are many, if any, in this discussion whose focus is real-time hardware control, and I'm not going there from here.
My thoughts on Java Script are there is already an environment where I can use it without HTML/CSS, i.e. Google Drive, and that is a step off from using VBA with Excel. That doesn't mean HTML & CSS are unimportant, it's just I may put those horses behind the usual cart.
Thanks again for your input to where I am heading.
cat fud heer
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My primary way of learning technology is to use youtube coding tutorials. I ALWAYS start with youtube when learning a new technology and branch out to written tutorials from there.
If you want to learn c# this is one of the BEST video tutorial playlists i have found
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAC325451207E3105[^]
Eric
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Eric, thanks for the tip. I've never tried using YouTube tutorials. I will now. That link is bookmarked for when I have the IDE installed and can turn up the sound. (Gawd! I hate cube world!)
Whoever has done these should be commended because they've laid this out like a book, meaning I can go to different chapters when I want. (I'm not much of a YouTuber so I'm not certain where the bar is for this sort of thing.
cat fud heer
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Hello:
I would also consider myself one of the more senior developers (50+). Most of the work we have done over the last 15 years or so was in VB6, but a few years ago we knew the future was somewhat limited.
So I started to learn C#, that and some ASP.NET, Javascript etc. and we are now producing some interesting web sites, web applications and of course more desktop software. I can't say the learning curve has been easy, but we seem to be making pretty good progress now and it is pretty nice to have skills that are a little more "current" now.
It is also fun when you push yourself out of the comfort zone, always lots to learn!
So I would suggest C# too.... good luck.
Dave
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