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OriginalGriff wrote: sitting on your thumb and getting others to do it all for you is another.
That is called skill which every programmer needs. Damn why do I lack it 
Microsoft ... the only place where VARIANT_TRUE != true
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Asking for help on a sticking point is one thing, but asking for help in picking a project topic tells me the person should do just enough to pass the class, and pick another vocation that doesn't involve freedom of thought. A programmer has to be able to think on his feet.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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Agree with you. While starting coding about 28 years ago, being a Mechanical Engineer*, I didn't know what a 'file' was. Why do we need files? We had heard of office files storing sheets of paper, but what is a computer file? Then, we found a good Samaritan who patiently taught us (a group of friends/classmates) about files, and the meaning of compiling, linking, and creating the executable, in FORTRAN IV.
Further, while getting introduced to MFC, I found that even a simple "Hello World" application in Visual Studio (16-bit version 1.5 sometime in 1996/97) created several files, most of which were not even C++ files (.res, along with several Windows-related files); this again, was made simpler by someone sitting and clarifying.
Now, I think it is the other way around; there is an explosion of information on the Internet - so much so that it sometimes becomes difficult to separate the "grain from chaff" - especially for a newcomer. Of course, as you say, they should put efforts, and not just "sit with hands-folded and relaxed". But, somewhere, they need help, maybe a simple nudge.
* Shakespeare has a chapter called "The Rude Mechanicals" in "A Midsummer Night's Dream" - we were sometimes considered rude too.
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Avijnata wrote: there is an explosion of information on the Internet
Ironically I would think that would be good for this younger generation. But since they don't know how to find information it only makes it worse I guess.
For those of us that grew up without an internet we had to look in books, try, try, and try, again, and ask others so we know how to do the work to find an answer. For me, the internet has made finding answers much easier but for some I guess it hinders them.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Seeking and sharing knowledge are great gifts. They do don't come for free. Sometimes (often) the best advice is 'go and have a think about it'.
Peter Wasser
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts." - Bertrand Russell
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pwasser wrote: Seeking and sharing knowledge are great gifts. They do don't come for free. Sometimes (often) the best advice is 'go and have a think about it'.
I agree.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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The pity of it is, these people are either very dumb, or have receieved very poor teaching, which seems more likely. And ultimately their careers are not going to go well because they have been given such a poor grounding in the subject. There are too many questions which demonstrate that the poster has no real understanding of computer architecture, data storage, file handling, etc., even though they can put some simple (or not so simple) code together.
There was a very basic question some months ago, which could easily have been answered by looking at a reference book, and yet the poster thought it reasonable to ask here. And, even worse, he was teaching the class.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote: which demonstrate that the poster has no real understanding of computer architecture, data storage, file handling, etc., even though they can put some simple (or not so simple) code together.
But most of us were there once, I believe. 
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Nope. Facing tough (for me) problems I think about it, read about it, think some more and tinker with toy problems and solutions until I approach some result. When I ask for help I try to be very specific or ask pointers to documentation.
This is what a developer or engineer should do. Many students don't have this aptitude, proving that they simply chose the wrong faculty - engineering is about solving problems, possibily problems noone ever solved (if you're lucky enough). Solving problems requires thinking, not asking - that is the way of the schools, when you don't know something you ask the teacher... Not the way of someone trying to work out a solution.
Geek code v 3.12
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- r++>+++ y+++*
Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
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den2k88 wrote: Nope
I said all of us have been at the point where we didn't know how to code. That IS true.
I agree with most of what you said. A great way to learn is to work through the problem on your own, kind of like lifting weights. It builds you up. But there is nothing wrong with asking a question. In fact a good developer knows at what point they have spent too much time looking for a solution and now should ask someone.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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No, I was NEVER there.
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote: No, I was NEVER there.
Ah, someone who was born knowing it all. I'm humbled to be in your ether presence. 
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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It's about time you learned some respect (I hope you genuflected as well). 
".45 ACP - because shooting twice is just silly" - JSOP, 2010
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You can never have too much ammo - unless you're swimming, or on fire. - JSOP, 2010
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When you pry the gun from my cold dead hands, be careful - the barrel will be very hot. - JSOP, 2013
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Of course, but I (and I suspect most others over the age of 40) learned the basics before we started trying to write code.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote: Of course, but I (and I suspect most others over the age of 40) learned the basics before we started trying to write code.
Back before the "I must have it now!" days.
There's no patience today.
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote: Back before the "I must have it now!" days.
Not much choice when there was no internet. You could always ask a colleague, but the usual answer was, "I'm not your f***ing mother!".
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Richard MacCutchan wrote: but the usual answer was, "I'm not your f***ing mother!".
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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RyanDev wrote:
I know, right?! From Richard, no less. Scandalous, I tell you.
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I get along fine on my own but if I had coworkers with that attitude, I think I'd deck them. 
There are only 10 types of people in the world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote: have received very poor teaching, which seems more likely
This is not their mistake, isn't it? Some people are just plain unlucky to get a bad teacher. That's why, IMHO, they need help. Perhaps, a simple nudge may suffice.
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I'm happy to give a simple nudge, but I still expect the questioner to say something more than "please provide solution", which question is all too common.
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Richard MacCutchan wrote: "please provide solution"
You've just summed up the majority of the QA section on CP 
How do you know so much about swallows? Well, you have to know these things when you're a king, you know.
modified 31-Aug-21 21:01pm.
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Rohan Leuva wrote: help me screw it some more?
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Who cares.... you don't like it, just leave it as-is... go to another question or ignore it.
I'd rather be phishing!
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Maximilien wrote: you don't like it, just leave it as-is... go to another question or ignore it
Yes, we are doing this over and over again and as a result you can see beauty of QA now a days.
"When you don't know what you're doing it's best to do it quickly"- SoMad
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