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No one ever lost money underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
FTFY
If you can keep your head while those about you are losing theirs, perhaps you don't understand the situation.
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or any other public....
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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"Protesting" at a vaccination site and getting it shut down. 
I rarely take this position, but this is where gubmint needs to seriously crack down, and adopt a zero tolerance policy. This isn't a free speech issue. They're putting public health at risk.
Seriously, enough with this sh*t.
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It is very close to attempted murder. Maybe terrorism? 
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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It's a self-appointed Praetorian guard.
It was only in wine that he laid down no limit for himself, but he did not allow himself to be confused by it.
― Confucian Analects: Rules of Confucius about his food
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really Griff? wtf there was no violence at all, people doing what they are allowed to do. Unlike Antifa and BLM that burns businesses down.
The only reason the vax sites were closed was because officials were pussies. Get some LEOs, tell the protestors where to stand, and get on with your business.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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Yes, really.
This isn't "free speech", or "personal liberty": this is people trying to prevent others getting medical treatment that could easily save their lives and the lives of those around them. Not because it might conceivably harm the protestors in any way, shape, or form; simply because they believe that someone is lying to them*.
How is that right? How does that differ from how terrorist groups start? The whole idea of terrorism is to make people so afraid that they will accept any alternative.
By all means, believe whatever you want: but nobody has the right to impose that on others who believe differently.
* And all the evidence seems to agree: but not the people the protestors think are making bollocks up and feeding it to them.
"I have no idea what I did, but I'm taking full credit for it." - ThisOldTony
"Common sense is so rare these days, it should be classified as a super power" - Random T-shirt
AntiTwitter: @DalekDave is now a follower!
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OriginalGriff wrote: nobody has the right to impose that on others who believe differently
Unfortunately, most people didn't make an exception for the state.
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I only took issue with what the protesters were doing (yelling, waving signs, acting like idiots and handing out pamphlets) and escalating it to preventing people from getting their vaccinations. It was the staff that unnecessarily shut it down. Like I said, one deputy could have handled that crowd and life would go on. It was never anything more. No need to make it hysterical.
I'm tired of the selective over dramatization of everything.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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I agree that we should all get the vaccine if we can (most of the U.S. can't right now), but we have a congressman that just tested positive for COVID after his 2nd vaccine.
MA US Rep. Stephen Lynch positive for COVID after 2nd vaccine dose[^]
So, not all people who are anti vaccine are idiots. Some have valid arguments and concerns.
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Slacker007 wrote: So, not all people who are anti vaccine are idiots. Some have valid arguments and concerns.
No, they don't.
Of course you test positive after vaccination. And vaccines aren't 100% guaranteed, but they work for most.
Go protest for the freedom of the polio virus, see if you can get those vaccines banned and bring back iron lungs.
--edit
Aight, they may have concerns, but certainly not arguments. And if you got concerns, you look for information (aka, education). But if you prevent others from getting it, you a liability and should be removed from the discussion entirely.
Bastard Programmer from Hell 
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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hey eddy, got any children? I've had a few. I have an issue with the government mandating vaccines that can kill my children. But wait, you say I'm full of it? Then why do I have to sign a legal waver accepting the fact the vaccine may have "side effects"?
ps - they did not stop anybody from getting their vaccine, the government did.
Charlie Gilley
<italic>Stuck in a dysfunctional matrix from which I must escape...
"Where liberty dwells, there is my country." B. Franklin, 1783
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.” BF, 1759
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charlieg wrote: hey eddy, got any children? I've had a few. I have an issue with the government mandating vaccines that can kill my children.
Your children were vaccinated as babies, against smallpox and such. They live in a relative safe world thanks to vaccines existing. And no one complained when polio was wiped out, did they?
It shouldn't be optional, but mandatory.
charlieg wrote: Then why do I have to sign a legal waver accepting the fact the vaccine may have "side effects"?
Because any treatment carries risk. I been taking a lot of medication for years, and that has had some side effects. If my doctor could be held liable, he would stop doctoring. And that's not just so for treatment; even looking at the intestines carries a (small) risk.
There's more risk in taking pain medications; but that doesn't stop America from taking them en masse.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Disclaimer: Not wanting to convince you at all, just answering for the sick of the debate (not discussion)
Marc Clifton wrote:
1. No long term effects study (obviously.)
Usually vaccines don't have such long time effects, either it works or not, either it brings collateral damage or not, but if it does, it does it pretty soon.
Long term studies are usually needed because the studies are damend slow and it takes long time to get a decent tested-people base.
This is not the case as there have been a huge amount money getting flooded into the studies, what has accelerated the research a lot and there has been a lot of people for the tests in the pre-market phases, bringing the same numbers in a couple of weeks that would usually take years in other studies.
Marc Clifton wrote: 2. No data on how long the immunity lasts (because it's so new)
Agree on this. But... I think that even if it wasn't more than a year or two... it would still help a lot to slow down the ratios right now until there is something better.
Marc Clifton wrote: 3. It doesn't appear to prevent the spread of COVID, just the symptoms.
About the spread... I partially agree with you. But one of the most important aspects is that it helps reducing the severity if you get it.
Marc Clifton wrote: I do choose not to get the vaccine and I'll be damned if government or my neighbor has the authority to force me to.
And that's fine for me
Marc Clifton wrote: Now granted, I would never stop someone from getting the vaccine
The same as you should not be forced to get it.
Free will, my / your decission
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Nelek wrote: Free will, my / your decission
Nope.
This isn't capitalism, nor a choice. All must go.
And stop the whining about vaccines. Every kid is vaccinated in the modern world.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy, take it easy... I am not against vaccination.
But I can understand that some people don't want to be "forced" to do it.
Eddy Vluggen wrote:
And stop the whining about vaccines.
Read better... I am not whining I am giving arguments for it.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Your opinion is not an argument. You acting as if there should be a choice, as if it a luxury to get vaccinated.
There cannot be a choice; if there is, the damn thing will be here to stay.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy Vluggen wrote: Your opinion is not an argument.
It is not my opinion, it is a fact right now.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: You acting as if there should be a choice, as if it a luxury to get vaccinated.
Because at this moment... it is.
You get called and told, you might get it and offer you some options to make an appointment. You have no possibility to get it when you want, so partially it is a luxus to get it. I will probably have to wait almost a year before I get even asked.
Additionally...
First, there is not enough to get all people done, so if there are people voluntarily rejecting it... it is a bless for other people because they will get it sooner.
Second, there is no official mandatory command to get it, only recommendations. And recommendations is something voluntary, if you like or not.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: There cannot be a choice;
but still there is.
If the governments start telling it is a must, then I will share your vehemence defending it. 
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Nelek wrote: It is not my opinion, it is a fact right now.
Your opinion is not a fact.
Nelek wrote: Because at this moment... it is.
You get called and told, you might get it and offer you some options to make an appointment. You have no possibility to get it when you want, so partially it is a luxus to get it. I will probably have to wait almost a year before I get even asked.
Yes; and won't stay so until there's enough vaccine.
Nelek wrote: but still there is.
If the governments start telling it is a must, then I will share your vehemence defending it.
You doubting that government will not make it mandatory? 
Even so, how can you be against, with our history? Why make it a "choice"?
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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My opinion is my opinion.
The fact is that right now is a voluntary thing.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: You doubting that government will not make it mandatory?
they probably will, but right now... it is still a voluntary thing.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: Even so, how can you be against...
I am not against, but I respect the current situation and the people that are not in the same opinion than me, as long as they keep respect to others. And Marc did show a lot more respect than many others on both sides of the coin (pro and anti vaccine). And if he doesn't want to get it... so it be. I have nothing to object. It still is an individual election.
Eddy Vluggen wrote: ... with our history? Why make it a "choice"?
And just because of our history I have said some times, that we will deserve what we will throw on us. Call it nuke-war, call it bio-war, call it nature catastrophe of epic dimension, call it medical advance going the wrong way, call it... whatever.
But we still have choices everyday... and without the ability or the opportunity of chosing things, we are even more doomed than with it.
If this ends with a population decimation and I am in it, well... I will accept it. The same as if I slip getting out of the shower and break my neck or whatever other silly accident that might kill me in every second of my life.
On the other side... if this ends in a population decimation, out planet will might get even profit of it and maybe future generations get better chances just because we had so many deaths right now...
We can never know.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
modified 1-Feb-21 10:57am.
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Nelek wrote: The fact is that right now is a voluntary thing.
As is education.
Nelek wrote: I am not against
You're advocating it as a choice.
Nelek wrote: But we still have choices everyday... and without the ability or the opportunity of chosing things, we are even more doomed than with it.
It was a good thing you had no choice over the polio virus.
This not about choices or democracy.
Nelek wrote: If this ends with a population decimation and I am in it, well... I will accept it. The same as if I slip getting out of the shower and break my neck or whatever other silly accident that might kill me in every second of my life.
Accepting a plague is hardly comparable to an accident.
Moreover; you a risc to anyone else, and knowingly.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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Eddy... we can continue the whole day with the same arguments.
I am not advocating it as a choice. It still s a frigging choice.
I already said, if it is done mandatory, then I will argue about getting the shot as vehement as you. But right now... if you want it or not, if you like it or not... it STILL is a choice.
I don't like it, but I respect it.
And you can say what you want, but you can't do anything about it being a choice and about having people that doesn't want to get it.
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Nelek wrote: Eddy... we can continue the whole day with the same arguments.
You did not present any, only opinions.
Nelek wrote: And you can say what you want, but you can't do anything about it being a choice and about having people that doesn't want to get it.
Of course I can, and doing so. Petitioning my government to make it mandatory.
Bastard Programmer from Hell
"If you just follow the bacon Eddy, wherever it leads you, then you won't have to think about politics." -- Some Bell.
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