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really? mikepwilson16-Jul-13 8:35 mikepwilson 16-Jul-13 8:35  artist? No. Just, no. craftsman? maybe some day. But no. engineer? Not sure I buy that either. People take themselves WAY too seriously. Why not just add "cyberjocky" and "Level 37 Hacker" while you're at it? Re: really? Alexandro Ramos Rodríguez22-Jul-13 8:14 Alexandro Ramos Rodríguez 22-Jul-13 8:14  The software is more like a craft that a science. Is the only explain of those millions of different solutions to the same thing: such different programming languages, frameworks, architectures, perspectives. If you wouldn't take yourself seriously, you wouldn't bother yourself to write that post, you would laugh in front of a mirror Not an engineer Tom Clement16-Jul-13 5:04 Tom Clement 16-Jul-13 5:04  Calling myself an engineer doesn't seem right. It somehow reminds me of how lawyers (I used to be one) changed their titles in the USA. The initials after the name were once LLB (bachelor of law), then, because lawyers wanted to be equal in status to doctors, they changed it to JD (juris doctor). Although there are plenty of principles we apply as programmers, it doesn't seem to quite be the equivalent of engineering. On the flip side, we do make many aesthetic choices. It seems closer to art, although calling ourselves artists would be, I suppose, equally pretentious. Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^] modified 16-Jul-13 11:28am. Re: Not an engineer   Forogar  18-Jul-13 5:39   Forogar   18-Jul-13 5:39  I have a PhD and I like to think it stands for "Programmer, hard Driven". - I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code. Re: Not an engineer tumbledDown2earth18-Jul-13 18:36 tumbledDown2earth 18-Jul-13 18:36  Honestly agree Re: Not an engineer H.Brydon19-Jul-13 11:38 H.Brydon 19-Jul-13 11:38  Speak for yourself. I am a 'real' engineer. I have 2 Bachelor degrees: electrical engineering and computer science. The way I look at it, one is hardware related and one is software. I do much the same activities with both... I solve problems by designing and building something, using judgement, sound principles and certain measures of quality and craftsmanship. You can build something elaborate, simple, quality, junk, big, little, creative, mundane. Whatever I build has users. Sometimes I am high up in the hierarchy, sometimes on the bottom rung, and different levels of problem detail are addressed at each activity level. There are elite designers and monkeys in both. IMHO both are engineering. -- Harvey Re: Not an engineer Tom Clement19-Jul-13 14:34 Tom Clement 19-Jul-13 14:34  I think the point is not so much what we do. My guess is that what I've done is not terribly different in character that what you've done. The question is what we call it. I'm really fine with our having a semantic difference. After all, the question was "As a coder.. what do you see yourself as?" I answered it, as you point out, for myself. I'd never presume to speak for you. Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^] Re: Not an engineer H.Brydon19-Jul-13 16:11 H.Brydon 19-Jul-13 16:11  Hmmm... That seems (to me) to be in opposition with what you originally said. You didn't seem to like the idea of being or claiming to be an engineer. Oh well, I'm an engineer whether you like it or not! -- Harvey Re: Not an engineer Tom Clement19-Jul-13 21:22 Tom Clement 19-Jul-13 21:22  I don't see the contradiction, Brydon. The question asked how I see myself. Even if you and I do roughly the same work, I'm free to see myself as not an engineer, and you're free to see yourself however you like. Whatever makes you happy is fine with me. Tom Clement Serena Software, Inc. www.serena.com articles[^] CListCtrl 567890123416-Jul-13 4:41 5678901234 16-Jul-13 4:41  I see myself as CListCtrl. Maybe it's time to move to mobile development? A beginner Pete O'Hanlon16-Jul-13 4:29 Pete O'Hanlon 16-Jul-13 4:29  Definitely a beginner. So much to learn, so little time. I was brought up to respect my elders. I don't respect many people nowadays. CodeStash - Online Snippet Management | My blog | MoXAML PowerToys | Mole 2010 - debugging made easier Re: A beginner dusty_dex16-Jul-13 4:42 dusty_dex 16-Jul-13 4:42  Pete O'Hanlon wrote: So much to learn, so little time. So much to learn, so little of it sticks. No doubt. It's due in no small part to copious amounts of extraneous bullsh*t (of framework X/methodology X) Re: A beginner Nagy Vilmos16-Jul-13 8:58 Nagy Vilmos 16-Jul-13 8:58  Pete O'Hanlon wrote: So much to learn drink, so little time. ftfy Yoda! If your a beginner, I'm a flippin' foetus! Reality is an illusion caused by a lack of alcohol "Nagy, you have won the internets." - Keith Barrow Re: A beginner H.Brydon19-Jul-13 11:39 H.Brydon 19-Jul-13 11:39  Pete O'Hanlon wrote: Definitely a beginner. So much to learn, so little time. Scary thought, but I think you are right... And to think that someday I may catch up to you. -- Harvey More of a Plumber than I would like to admit... AlexCode15-Jul-13 21:20 AlexCode 15-Jul-13 21:20  I like to think of me as a Software Engineer or Solution Architect but when we arrive at an already ongoing project we will always find ourselves adding one more tube (hopefully the best one possible) to successfully lead the water (more or less dirty) somewhere, sometimes not even clear where... On top of that, and until now, I managed to code on and for everything I needed so yeah, I'm a plumber!! I see myself as an Inventor... Lizandro Campbell15-Jul-13 17:53 Lizandro Campbell 15-Jul-13 17:53  ... and also as a Creator, a Researcher and foremost a Problem Solver. I like what I do as a developer and I'm proud of it. Cheers, Lizandro Campbell I am so proud to be a problem solver Swinkaran15-Jul-13 13:57 Swinkaran 15-Jul-13 13:57  It sounds very crazy. but most of the time, whenever I solve any major/critical bugs and get wowed by mates I really feel very proud. At the same time, I am more like a problem solver, That is what I think about my profession. I see myself as a.... Ron Anders15-Jul-13 8:59 Ron Anders 15-Jul-13 8:59  More Ron I think I see myself when writing a coding is police detective......:) JasminHan15-Jul-13 8:02 JasminHan 15-Jul-13 8:02  I think I see myself when writing a coding is police detective......Because when I have some errors, then I need to search from error message and followed the flow of the system step by step. So, I feel like a police detective...... Re: I think I see myself when writing a coding is police detective......:)   Forogar  18-Jul-13 5:40   Forogar   18-Jul-13 5:40  Then you get to shoot a bunch of innocent bystanding code blocks? - I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code. I think "Researcher" is missing as a major bullet point H.Brydon15-Jul-13 7:02 H.Brydon 15-Jul-13 7:02  Whether I am working in academia or the real world, anything I do in code is solving some problem, and it typically takes research to solve that problem. -- Harvey More of a trade than a science jim lahey15-Jul-13 2:32 jim lahey 15-Jul-13 2:32  Is how I see software development. I see parallels in what I do when I look at how builders, plumbers, electricians and other tradespeople work. I don't see much of a scientific aspect to it at all because I'm not really researching into widely unknown topics. The engineering aspect is definitely there though, designing an application is the part an architect does before passing the plans over to the tradespeople who realise the designs. Re: More of a trade than a science Andreas Gieriet15-Jul-13 9:43 Andreas Gieriet 15-Jul-13 9:43  Fully agree, my +5! I wonder who sees himself as an "Artist". Artist in the current meaning is different to the one in the 16th century - those days, it was meant more like a craftsmanship. I met some "Artist" Software developers with the attitude of a "Prima-Donna": if you criticise or question some of their "Art", you are the dilletant who does not understand the "oevre". With that background it's a bit suspcicious to me if some developers claim to be Artists. Just my 5 Cents. Awaiting Further Worship W∴ Balboos, GHB15-Jul-13 0:46 W∴ Balboos, GHB 15-Jul-13 0:46  These mortals - they desire again of me a boon of application. Thus, I must also be judge and consider their worth. Perhaps a plague of 'insects' to further harry them in their vane struggles? "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein "As far as we know, our computer has never had an undetected error." - Weisert "If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010 Re: Awaiting Further Worship Gary Wheeler15-Jul-13 8:52 Gary Wheeler 15-Jul-13 8:52  W∴ Balboos wrote: vane struggles You enjoy watching them windmill in frustration? (or were you looking for vain[^]?) Software Zen: delete this;

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