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honey the codewitch wrote: Zig is neat, but "neat" doesn't deliver.
and don't buy the groceries, or rent, etc..
I once was in a large shop that used C exclusively and I was asked to rewrite a huge project, I did it in C++ and the manage called in a associate that I was friendly with and she asked him; "Does he know what he's doing?"
The project got completed and worked great.
A home without books is a body without soul. Marcus Tullius Cicero
PartsBin an Electronics Part Organizer - Release Version 1.4.0 (Many new features) JaxCoder.com
Latest Article: EventAggregator
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C++ has really endeared itself to me over the past few years. Before that I was kind of favoring C#, because for all its power, C++ can be really stodgy and finicky.
That being said, embedded kind of forced me back to it, and using it regularly again has smoothed out the rough edges for me, better than ever before, so I'm proficient and productive with it.
Well, not the STL. I'm so rusty with that, because I don't use it with embedded. Frankly I stick to the C standard libraries mostly, because they're more consistent implementationwise platform to platform on embedded. I'm pretty good with the language features though, and reimplementing basic STL functionality as I need it.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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I agree, I also have been using it since doing embedded. I'm starting to use it on the STM32 platform now and really liking it. To me using C is like going back to black and white after seeing color. C++ just has so much more to offer.
I won't say I'm proficient using C++ but am picking it up as I go. Don't have any project to really challenge my skills and so I only use the basics.
I've never used STL so I don't miss it.
A home without books is a body without soul. Marcus Tullius Cicero
PartsBin an Electronics Part Organizer - Release Version 1.4.0 (Many new features) JaxCoder.com
Latest Article: EventAggregator
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The STM32s w/ CubeMX are alright. You can use them with Zephyr too.
I'm kind of disappointed in the hardware selection offered by STM32. They don't really push the envelope for ARM devices the way NXP does.
The issue with NXP is coding w/ MCUXpresso is like having your teeth pulled.
But 1GHz ARM Cortex M (not a typo) in the NXP MIMIXRT1170 that can take various types of external "flash" including - get this - m.2 storage, plus external RAM including DDR3 is an absolute beast. It has a second 400MHz lower power Cortex M core as well. It is, as far as I know, the only realtime MCU that can run Linux.
Really amazing kit. I have a $200 devkit w/ it but MCUXpresso has kept me from doing more with it.
There's scuttlebutt on the PJRC forums that the next Teensy will use this chip. If so, they will support Arduino. What a world.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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To me, Zig is to C as Rust is to C++.
The thing with Zig's exception handling is that it doesn't really have exception handling. IMO Zig having try and catch keywords just makes things confusing. I like the idea behind what they do in Zig. They give you a nice way to do Golang-style error handling without needing to write if err != nil everywhere. But calling them try and catch can add confusion given what those keywords do in other languages. Having said said, I find Zig's try, catch, defer, and errdefer are a decent but not perfect way to deal with errors.
As for what's wrong with traditional try-catch exceptions, I imagine Zig's creator would argue they violate the language's "No hidden control flow" principle. Kind of the same argument Joel Spolsky made here 20ish years ago. As a member of the Golang dev team put it: "The reason we didn't include exceptions in Go is not because of expense. It's because exceptions thread an invisible second control flow through your programs making them less readable and harder to reason about."
It's really a matter opinion, of course. It's fine to prefer traditional exceptions, too.
As for why use Zig instead of something else: I suspect that's personal to the developer. Maybe they liked the simplicity and flexibility of C, but wanted more sophisticated metaprogramming and fewer footguns. It might be that Zig gave them the little bit of extra joy that was the difference between creating and not creating the project.
I've been there. Sometimes when you're feeling a bit burned out and jaded, trying a new language brings back that little spark of joy that reminds you of why you started programming in the first place, and inspires you to take on an ambitious project you might not have been otherwise been able to muster the energy for.
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I get it. While I still don't understand the exception handling flow vs. syntax (i've only gleaned what I have about the language from reading actual code, not the manual) I'll defer to your position that it's more elegant that C style error bubbling via return values.
I don't like the syntax of zig. "fn", types trailing the name, etc. it's like all the things i didn't like about pascal anew.
But my major sticking point here is the reference implementation provided with the TinyVG package. It should not be in Zig, even if the original proof of concept was written in Zig. It needs to be ported to a more traditional language. I'd recommend C.
Check out my IoT graphics library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx
And my IoT UI/User Experience library here:
https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix
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and ran across this one; Mouse Pad[^]
Suitable for when I run into coding problems. 
A home without books is a body without soul. Marcus Tullius Cicero
PartsBin an Electronics Part Organizer - Release Version 1.4.0 (Many new features) JaxCoder.com
Latest Article: EventAggregator
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They could do a little better with the framing.
I’ve given up trying to be calm. However, I am open to feeling slightly less agitated.
I’m begging you for the benefit of everyone, don’t be STUPID.
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I'm honored.
Would this [^] be our theme song.
A home without books is a body without soul. Marcus Tullius Cicero
PartsBin an Electronics Part Organizer - Release Version 1.4.0 (Many new features) JaxCoder.com
Latest Article: EventAggregator
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Sho nuff! 
Jeremy Falcon
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Raccoon city cult? 
Just in case... resident evil joke
M.D.V. 
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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Nelek wrote: resident evil joke
I was about to say... I don't get it.
Had a buddy back in the day who played Resident Evil (talking like PS1 days), but I never played it. Sim City on the other hand...
Jeremy Falcon
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Film serie (Mila Jovovic) or Animation Films (at least 5) and a Netflix Serie or 2 are out there too
M.D.V.
If something has a solution... Why do we have to worry about?. If it has no solution... For what reason do we have to worry about?
Help me to understand what I'm saying, and I'll explain it better to you
Rating helpful answers is nice, but saying thanks can be even nicer.
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My Mice have a pad in the garage
I know because they keep stepping on the Mouse Trap
I guess they like Peanut Butter Crunchy style
10 this summer I need a Cat NOT sorry HoneyWitch
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I'll make some statements I believe to be true and then you can respond to each statement with true/false & reasoning.
On Windows x64 (and maybe Linux too) a (normal) process
1. gets an address space which is 4GB in size when the process starts
2. OS modules take up certain portion of that address space (1GB?)
3. The rest (3GB) is used for the stack & heap of the running process
4. As the app instantiates new objects (allocates memory for objects) on the heap, the amount of memory the process uses grows -- but it can never grow beyond the 3GB (4GB total) anyways, right?
5 ## This is a biggie ## A process can never eat up more memory than its address space allows 3GB (4GB total) so a process can never really impact another process anyways because each one is limited to 4GB anyways, right?
6. Extreme Example - If there is 128GB RAM in the hardware and we say OS (associated services) take up 28GB (to make things easy) and there are two services running (2 X 4GB = 8GB) then this machine could never run out of memory, since it would have 92GB just sitting idle
7 Driving A Point Home - So when a developer notices that the app he wrote running on the Server keeps crashing with "out of memory" error, then looks around and says, "Hey, wait a second, I think your service (which has been running on the Server long before aforementioned dev's app) is eating up memory and making mine die", then that developer doesn't understand process address space, right? Right? Right! 
This is also why
A. you can solve memory problems created by lots of processes running, by installing more memory (if hardware is further expandable)
B. You cannot solve memory problems of a service or app that crashes due to low memory (since it is simply eating it's own memory) by installing more memory (even if hardware is furhter expandable).
Agree? Agree some? Disagree? Disagree entirely?
modified 22hrs ago.
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The 4GB limit is a Windows 32 limit, and the default in Win32 is 4 GB with 2 GB being granted the OS, effectively limiting the application to 2 GB. There is an option to make this 1 & 3 GB but I don't remember how to do this. Exchange Server and SQL Server versions designed to run on 32 bit Windows server used this option.
For Windows 64, the limits are listed at Memory Limits for Windows and Windows Server Releases - Win32 apps | Microsoft Learn. Note that 32-bit applications are still limited to 4GB simply because 2^32 is 4GB. 64 bit application limits vary by OS version, generally growing with each new version of Windows.
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Yes, that makes sense. I'm stuck in a Win32 mindset. 
That's all very good info. I appreciate you reading and replying.
Thanks for your time. 
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Are you the developer with the app that is dying or the app that is consuming memory like Lays/Walkers?
I’ve given up trying to be calm. However, I am open to feeling slightly less agitated.
I’m begging you for the benefit of everyone, don’t be STUPID.
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I'm the one with the app that has been running on server for a long time (many years).
No out of memory errors.
Other comes along and has out of memory errors then thinks it's someone else.
Kind of annoying. I'm mostly just curious, because my main point is that "you can't really entirely effect another process (this would be almost like a malicious process which could cause another app to fault)" because your app is stuck in it's own address space.
Now if the server has 4GB memory then yes maybe my app taking memory could cause you issue since neither of us really has the correct amount of space.
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raddevus wrote: gets an address space which is 4GB in size when the process starts
I'm not sure about the actual limit, but I don't think it's a low cap like that per process... maybe per thread. I dunno. Gonna have to check out obermd's link myself.
raddevus wrote: OS modules take up certain portion of that address space (1GB?)
Not from an application's perspective. That died out in the Win31 days. These days just about every OS uses a ring architecture, where 0 is the highest access and is usually only accessed by the kernel. Applications have the least amount of access into something called protected memory, which virtually maps addresses to make your app think it can access whatever, but it can't.
You'll never accidently overwrite the OS' memory these days, but you can have a memory leak and take the system down that way.
raddevus wrote: The rest (3GB) is used for the stack & heap of the running process
For an application, there are 3 areas of memory: static, stack, and heap. Stack and heap get all the attention, but static is just as important. Static memory is used for things like literals that is embedded in the application itself. For instance:
const char *howdy (void) {
return "Howdy";
}
int main()
{
printf("%s\n", howdy());
return 0;
}
This is perfectly valid C code. The string "howdy" can be found in a hex editor and stored in the executable itself. Unlike stack memory it's not going to get wiped out so easy, which means you can return a pointer to it directly in a function. You copy that literal over to a local variable on the stack though and return the variable, well things will start breaking if you did that.
raddevus wrote: As the app instantiates new objects (allocates memory for objects) on the heap, the amount of memory the process uses grows -- but it can never grow beyond the 3GB (4GB total) anyways, right?
Depends. The whole idea behind swap (*nix) or page files (Windows) is to get around that. The OS would extend the memory be moving things in and out of disk. Slow as dirt and not used these days nearly as much. But, if swap/paging is disabled then yes.
raddevus wrote: 5 ## This is a biggie ## A process can never eat up more memory than its address space allows 3GB (4GB total) so a process can never really impact another process anyways because each one is limited to 4GB anyways, right?
Correct, in a protected memory model. So, stay away from Win31. I don't think the exact limit is 3GB again, but an app can only screw up its own memory. However, if it does have a memory leak it could make it impossible for other apps to allocate memory and you get a crash that way. But, their memory won't be corrupted unless there's a bug in the other app somewhere.
raddevus wrote: 6. Extreme Example - If there is 128GB RAM in the hardware and we say OS (associated services) take up 28GB (to make things easy) and there are two services running (2 X 4GB = 8GB) then this machine could never run out of memory, since it would have 92GB just sitting idle
Assuming there's no memory leaks/bugs, yeah.
raddevus wrote: Driving A Point Home - So when a developer notices that the app he wrote running on the Server keeps crashing with "out of memory" error, then looks around and says, "Hey, wait a second, I think your service (which has been running on the Server long before aforementioned dev's app) is eating up memory and making mine die", then that developer is an idiot who doesn't understand process address space, right? Right? Right!
It depends. Could be, your app. Could be another app. You don't have to guess though. Every OS on the planet will tell you which processes are using the most memory. If it's Linux use top or install htop and find out. You can also write a script to monitor them.
raddevus wrote: You cannot solve memory problems of a service or app that crashes due to low memory (since it is simply eating it's own memory) by installing more memory (even if hardware is furhter expandable).
Depends on the nature of the bug in the service.
Jeremy Falcon
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I've overstated many things.
My point is that a single process cannot just consume all memory on a box, right?
It's limited to some address space size, I'm guessing.
But, maybe I'm wrong, maybe a process can consume all 128GB of ram??
That's what I'm really curious about.
I think it cannot becuase it would be quite easy for a malicious process to crash other processes and the OS if this were true.
When a process gets memory from heap (for newing up objects) it gets it from its own address space. When that memory is gone then you get "out of memory" but doesn't mean you ate all the memory on the box.
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raddevus wrote: My point is that a single process cannot just consume all memory on a box, right?
I already mentioned this... It's only available memory not already claimed. It's first come, first serve. So, assuming you're 64-bit and have less than 8TB memory then it can consume all the remaining available memory. Just like disks though, memory should never be "full" or else you'll run into problems.
raddevus wrote: It's limited to some address space size, I'm guessing.
Obermd posted the limits. My reply was about how memory works, so between the two of these you should know the limits.
raddevus wrote: But, maybe I'm wrong, maybe a process can consume all 128GB of ram??
Again, the OS will use some. Some graphics cards may also use some. Your app will never have access to that. It's available memory it can consume. I took time to write that reply, please go through it.
raddevus wrote: I think it cannot becuase it would be quite easy for a malicious process to crash other processes and the OS if this were true.
Nobody ever said otherwise. You asked if it could, all of us said no and I gave a detailed explanation of why not.
raddevus wrote: When a process gets memory from heap (for newing up objects) it gets it from its own address space. When that memory is gone then you get "out of memory" but doesn't mean you ate all the memory on the box.
Again, I already talked about protected/virtual memory. Did you read my reply?
Jeremy Falcon
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Oh, I read. I was just confused.
It often takes me a long while to understand things.
I'm a very slow developer. I've worked in IT for > 33 years & dev around 25 but I'm still honestly slow.
Just takes me a while to understand concepts.
That's it. Thanks for your help. I'll read it again.
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Thanks for the honesty buddy.  We all have our thing. Like my biggest weakness is impatience (some might say being a douche ).
Jeremy Falcon
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