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We developers who bend a UL backwards to show (essentially) tabular data instead of using a TABLE element.
I know. #wedeveloperproblems #grumpyoldman. Get over it.
But it bothers me because it's misguided principles over practicality.
cheers
Chris Maunder
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That's because we used TABLE to layout pages, so now we have to hate it in any form - even as table...
Skipper: We'll fix it.
Alex: Fix it? How you gonna fix this?
Skipper: Grit, spit and a whole lotta duct tape.
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That's everywhere in programming: "This is the RIGHT way to do it!"
But the real right way is the way that:
a. Gives the customer what he needs.
b. Does not cost an arm and a leg of developer time to produce and maintain.
Having principles is fine, but too many principles in programming are based on "What I know how to do", "What I studied", and "What I think is cool".
Too many people are too sure of their ability to discern right and wrong where no right or wrong exists, and insist that things be done the way that they have decided to perceive as right.
It's not for no reason that KISS was laid down as one of the first tenets of programming.
For God's sake, don't get me started on that emasculated PostScript called XML!
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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To quote a mutch wiser sole, "These are my principles, if you don't like them I've got plenty of others."
veni bibi saltavi
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Ah, a sole of the "R" variety.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Forgot to ask: How's the job going?
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I use that one often Nagy
We can’t stop here, this is bat country - Hunter S Thompson RIP
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Nagy Vilmos wrote: To quote a mutch wiser sole
Groucho Marx?
That's what I do. I drink, and I know things. ~ Tyrion Lannister
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He wouldn't have joined this club.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Quote: mutch wiser sole
Some kind of misspelled fish?
- I would love to change the world, but they won’t give me the source code.
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Quote: For God's sake, don't get me started on that emasculated PostScript called XML!
Why not? Go ahead. Tell us what you really think. Let it all hang out! [evil cackle] 
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
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Suffice it to say that this *great XML thing* is but a petty, comparatively useless, partial clone of what we were using decades ago.
What turned people off of PostScript is that adobe sort-of took ownership of it, when they created that king of bloat PDF. Everyone associated PS with PDF, from then on, without actually looking at what a magnificent -- and phenomenally efficient -- beast PS is.
So now we're stuck with the endless devotion to XML of people who don't realise that it's trivial, overcomplicated cr@p, compared to PS.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I have come to hate EVERYTHING from Adobe. Adobe Acrobat was and is a complicated, non-performing monstrosity. Windows 10 creates better PDFs than dungware Acrobat. Photoshop is overly complicated, counter-intuitive crapware. Illustrator and InDesign are unstable, even on the latest Apple machines. So I understand where you come from!
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
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Hey, here's the only good thing I have to say about MSO higher than 2003:
The save as PDF functions are INCREDIBLE! ( and don't take a fifth of the time of the adobe "distiller" cr@pware!)
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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True! True! 
Get me coffee and no one gets hurt!
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Mark_Wallace wrote: The save as PDF functions are INCREDIBLE!
Absolutely amazing. Creating PDFs with the hierarchy and automatic summary with links without doing anything particular is wonderful.
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
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It's how it should always have been. Postscript is bloatless and fast, but adobe managed to turn it into a nightmare of wasted resources.
MS designers and devs are far from being my favourite people, right now, but their work on this is blindingly good.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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den2k88 wrote: Creating PDFs with the hierarchy and automatic summary with links without doing anything particular is wonderful.
Meh! Had that in OpenOffice at least a decade ago (at least since version 1.1). MSO is still catching up on functionality, they spent all their time designing the ribbon and forgot to actually give users better tools.
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No please don't speak about that abomination of openOffice. I used it for years, when I was all the revolutionary Penguinman. Then for work I've been "forced" to use MSO 2010 - never been happier in my life.
OO and LibreOffice are wonderful tools... compared to MS Office 97. Maybe even Office 2000 (which was unbeatable IMHO until 2010). We're lucky it's only 2016 
GCS d--- s-/++ a- C++++ U+++ P- L- E-- W++ N++ o+ K- w+++ O? M-- V? PS+ PE- Y+ PGP t++ 5? X R++ tv-- b+ DI+++ D++ G e++>+++ h--- ++>+++ y+++* Weapons extension: ma- k++ F+2 X
If you think 'goto' is evil, try writing an Assembly program without JMP. -- TNCaver
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I'm not sure why you're comparing XML to PostScript, I'm guessing you mean Open XML from Microsoft?
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XML is like a version of PostScript that's had it's teeth drawn, its arms and legs chopped off, and its dangly bits removed.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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Mark_Wallace wrote: a. Gives the customer what he needs.
b. Does not cost an arm and a leg of developer time to produce and maintain.
c. Is very fast despite the unnecessary extras that were added to make it pretty.
I may not last forever but the mess I leave behind certainly will.
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Hey, don't go promising too much!
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
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I seem to remember you having this same rant before. I still agree.
This space for rent
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Chris Maunder wrote: We developers who bend a UL backwards to show (essentially) tabular data instead of using a TABLE element.
Web development is like working in the stone ages, whether you coerce ul or deal with the idiocy of table. They're both square pegs and the hole sure isn't.
Marc
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