|
I hope you'll cut me an ounce of prime-slack if I float a general question hearkening back to the olden times when 64k was a big honking number as un-affordable as a Rolex. This is not "market research."
Back in the day, the More (son of ThinkTank) outlining-and-lots-more application created originally by that singular character, Dave Winer[1] [^] (who went to start some interesting pre-Net stuff, like Userland), was a big deal.
Sales of More, if I recall correctly, were up there with the big productivity apps of the day (WordStar ? Lotus 1-2-3).
And, there was a cool "desk accessory" outliner by David Dunham [^] for the Mac called "Acta" that was in widespread use. Dunham went on to create the Opal outliner for Mac OSX ... which I've never seen.
Here's the question: what led to the general decline (assuming there was a general decline) in the use of outliners/outlining ?
Could use of outlining have not really declined: it's just that the major productivity tools, like MS Word and Excel, now incorporated "folding" or outlining abilities ? So dedicated apps were no longer needed ?
Or, outlining was something of a time-limited phenom, a trend that did not persist ? Yet another "viral phenomenon" triggered by a bunch of power-users generating hype fed to them by marketers, followed by a bunch of lemmings singing: "oh yeah, I gotta have that ?" on the way to the app-store 
I'd appreciate hearing from any old-time users of More or other outliners as to what you think may have happened vis-a-vis outlining tools in wide use.
Perhaps, it's just that UI's (apps, internet) featuring drill-down, folding, hierarchic navigation, master-detail, etc., are just so ubiquitous today, that there's no need to have a special tool ?
thanks, Bill
[1] My favorite memory of Dave was at the fancy dinner soiree thrown by Steve Jobs as part of the NeXT roll-out: Dave stood up and shouted at Jobs from across the spacious banquet-hall: "How are we going to make any money when it doesn't have a floppy drive ?" The issue of the high-cost of distributing software on the expensive media for the Canon magneto-optical drive for the NeXT machine was an issue on the mind of many developers.
«A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens inwards ... as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push» Wittgenstein
|
|
|
|
|
When I wrote those e-books, the outline feature in Word was crucial. I used it two ways -- first, I created an outline down to a sufficient level of detail so that I knew I had enough content and I knew what content I needed to research in depth and what content I needed to simply talk about.
Second, while writing, I would often realize that the organization was flawed -- I'm introducing a concept later that I actually need to introduce earlier, for example. Again, the outline really helped to see the flow of things.
I certainly don't need an outlining tool (unless it were really sophisticated, more like HyperCard (since you're bringing up great but old apps) because I would just fire up Word.
However, even when writing a lengthy article, I don't outline because I can just move stuff around if I need to, and I think that may point to why outlining has declined -- used to be, you HAD to write an outline because you were then going to type your paper out on a typewriter. Ugh. Then we lived in this quasi-automated state where we replaced our activities with computers, such as with specific outlining software, and eventually these programs simply became components of much more sophisticated programs.
However, I really would like an outlining tool that could manage both online and offline references, code snippets, personal commentaries, pictures, file links, etc. Which is why I mentioned HyperCard and which actually is why I started writing Intertexti[^] and actually use it a lot myself for note taking.
Marc
|
|
|
|
|
Thanks, Marc, that's exactly the kind of thoughtful response I hoped I would get !
Like you, I use my own custom-made outliner; I do intend to publish it one day on CP, but every time I think it's "ready for prime-time," I think of ... another feature it has to have
Oh yeah, HyperCard/HyperTalk was a very cool thing in its day, and I had a lot of fun with it. It was kind of too bad that Jobs put the kibosh on Crow and Calhoun getting to release their last amped-up version of HyperCard (3.0 that was previewed at the WWDC in '96, but which, I was told, was in development for a few years after that), but, as a business decision (following the ejecting, and then re-incorporation, of Claris, etc.), it probably made sense.
cheers, Bill
«A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens inwards ... as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push» Wittgenstein
|
|
|
|
|
OK, that settles it.
I'm going to do an article for CP that shows how to structure documents (whether they're tech docs or the next great Icelandic bestsellers).
Here's a tip: "sophistication" isn't meant to mean "time-consuming", "difficult to use", or "hard to remember".
Elegance, no matter how complicated it is, is simplicity.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
|
|
|
|
|
Mark_Wallace wrote: I'm going to do an article for CP that shows how to structure documents (whether they're tech docs or the next great Icelandic bestsellers).
I look forward to reading it!
Marc
|
|
|
|
|
OMG, I LOVED More!!!
Nothing like it back in the day!!!
|
|
|
|
|
So, why did you stop using it ? Or, do you use some other tool, now ?
cheers, Bill
«A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens inwards ... as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push» Wittgenstein
|
|
|
|
|
I stopped using my Mac basically, but this functionality is everywhere now!
I mostly use that functionality in mind mapping applications(MindJet)!
|
|
|
|
|
What I do remember is that More was yet another of the things that were ten-thousand times better for use in producing documentation than XML is.
What I can't remember is something that's less than a thousand times better.
I wanna be a eunuchs developer! Pass me a bread knife!
|
|
|
|
|
|
"I have… seen things you people wouldn't believe… Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched c-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhäuser Gate. All those… moments… will be lost in time, like tears… in… rain. Time… to die…"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEoF-Blt8UI[^]
And it looks like they are still burning...
Good pic!
Bad command or file name. Bad, bad command! Sit! Stay! Staaaay...
|
|
|
|
|
Running that blade again, are we?
|
|
|
|
|
It's true! I wouldn't believe it! 
But I think I might watch it again, see if it has good as when I was a kid! ^_^
|
|
|
|
|
It does hold up, mind you with Gaff I keep expecting Toasters!
|
|
|
|
|
Nice, makes me feel small! Happy New Year To You!
|
|
|
|
|
Quote: Beverly Hillbillies' star Donna Douglas dead at 81
Used to watch this show when younger, can't believe she was 82 where does the time go?
clickity[^]![Rose | [Rose]](https://codeproject.global.ssl.fastly.net/script/Forums/Images/rose.gif)
New version: WinHeist Version 2.1.0
There's a fine line between crazy and free spirited and it's usually a prescription.
I'm currently unsupervised, I know it freaks me out too but the possibilities are endless.
|
|
|
|
|
Mike Hankey wrote: where does the time go?
If you answer, "family, parties, beer, etc" then you're doing it right!
veni bibi saltavi
|
|
|
|
|
Nagy Vilmos wrote: If you answer, "family, parties, beer, etc" then you're doing it right!
You got that right!
New version: WinHeist Version 2.1.0
There's a fine line between crazy and free spirited and it's usually a prescription.
I'm currently unsupervised, I know it freaks me out too but the possibilities are endless.
|
|
|
|
|
Mike Hankey wrote: Used to watch this show when younger
Me too. R.I.P. Elly May Clampett.
Once you lose your pride the rest is easy.
I would agree with you but then we both would be wrong.
In the end, only three things matter: how much you loved, how gently you lived, and how gracefully you let go of things not meant for you. – Buddha
The report of my death was an exaggeration - Mark Twain
Simply Elegant Designs Jim<</div>
|
|
|
|
|
"Lyrics" removed after near violent protests by coordinate gangs of neurons claiming to represent "synapses for good taste."
[^].
«A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens inwards ... as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push» Wittgenstein
modified 4-Jan-15 8:22am.
|
|
|
|
|
So, after all these years India still lives in you! 
The sh*t I complain about
It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem
~! Firewall !~
|
|
|
|
|
I would say, as that former "virtual emperor" (Viceroy for India) of the British Empire, Lord Curzon, said: "The sacredness of India haunts me like a passion." But, I have not an atom of the depth of experience, or knowledge, Curzon had of India: a year there is a grain of sand on an infinite beach.
Is anything that "lives in us" not an embroidery of fiction on a cloth woven of dream and edited memory ?
«A man will be imprisoned in a room with a door that's unlocked and opens inwards ... as long as it does not occur to him to pull rather than push» Wittgenstein
|
|
|
|
|
Knowing India is one thing, knowing people and culture of India is another! On International basis, Language of India: Hindi, Religion of India: Hinduism (which in turn divides into 4 sects and groups), Dress of India: Saree... but nationally they're tremendous! Language: Hindi, Urdu, Tamil, Punjabi etc etc etc, Religion: Islam, Hinduism, Budhism, Christianity and many more, Dress: Saree, Shalwar Kameez.
Not only India, but many other countries have been found, from India itself! Bangladesh, and most importantly Pakistan. All of their culture and languages have been shared! India as it was, or as it is, is a very vast topic. I don't believe reading or understanding just one encyclopedia would be enough to gain knowledge and understanding of India. You're right, just living a few years is not enough. When I visited India last year, it was just a distance of 980km from my locale, but yet there was a huge difference in dressing, religion, culture (although culture changes after every 100km) as well as treating other people. Women in India are really now treated well. There has been a great change since that (hideous) event of gang-rape of a young student doctor in Delhi. I must accept that women are being treated well, and those images are still on my mind. I can still feel women cooking on road in their "Dhaaba" (Hotel; for any one who doesn't understand that word) to help their men in work. I can still see that girls were free to move and take a part in which ever activity they would like to.
That was India, no wonder they're right when they say, "Incredible India!". If you start learning India, you're going to meet you death with a lot of tally marks of failures.
The sh*t I complain about
It's like there ain't a cloud in the sky and it's raining out - Eminem
~! Firewall !~
|
|
|
|
|
BillWoodruff wrote: a grain of sand on an infinite beach
That's basically the same as an enormous solar system in an infinite galaxy. Compared to infinity everything not infinite is infinitely small, be it a grain of sand or an enormous solar system. At this point you might hear heads exploding
My blog[ ^]
public class SanderRossel : Lazy<Person>
{
public void DoWork()
{
throw new NotSupportedException();
}
}
|
|
|
|
|
Sander Rossel wrote: infinite galaxy
Surely you meant to say "infinite universe"? Which itself is not considered a sure thing either nowadays.
Cheers!
"I had the right to remain silent, but I didn't have the ability!"
Ron White, Comedian
|
|
|
|
|
General 
News 
Suggestion 
Question 
Bug 
Answer 
Joke 
Praise 
Rant 
Admin 
Submit an article or tip
